A what is it ? (non weapon)

Gustav · 14th May 2011, 07:10 PM

sorry, I couldn't resist...

Here some information from "Indonesian ornamental design" by van der Hoop, 1949, which still is a reference work for this region, and at least the kris hilt is coming from the neighborhood: the whole shape of this panel he calls a "mirror panel", and it is a chinese motif according to him, mostly found with other, like rock and cloud border, in Cirebon. Of course Ming ceramic is full of this kind of panels.

Of course this motif seems to be of Cetral-Asian origin; China absorbed much from the cultures of this region, particularly in the period of Yuan dynasty, many people in the administration at this time were muslims. Later many of chinese seamen, which participated in the great expeditions were muslims, most famous beeing Zheng He. Indonesian scholar Slamet Muljana writes: "Zheng He built Chinese Muslim communities first in Palembang, then in San Fa (West Kalimantan), subsequently he founded similar communities along the shores of Java, the Malay Peninsula and the Philippines. They preached Islam according to the Hanafi school of thought and in Chinese language."

It probably would be a long shot (as Gavin says

), yet the origin of the motiv IN the panel could most probably be the tree of life, at least regarding kris hilt.

(kris hilt is from: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...579#post120579)

katana · 14th May 2011, 08:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gustav

sorry, I couldn't resist...

It probably would be a long shot (as Gavin says

), yet the origin of the motiv IN the panel could most probably be the tree of life, at least regarding kris hilt.

Excellent info Gustav

....I'm glad you couldn't resist

Thank you

Kind Regards David

katana · 15th May 2011, 02:25 PM

Gustav,
I just want to add that you have brilliantly shown how studying ethnographic weapons is strongly linked to the decoration and manufacture of other ethnographic 'non-weapon' items.....and have , in 'one stroke' validated this thread and enhanced another.
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=13785

Well done

Kind Regards David

Gustav · 15th May 2011, 03:40 PM

David,
thank you very much for the kind words! Actually my posts in both threads are saying almost nothing serious regarding the objects. I just sometimes strongly feel the lack of elementar ethnologistic studies in my life, with some basic rules, understandings ... , a serious collector should be at least amateur ethnologist.

Kind regards,
Gustav

Tim Simmons · 15th May 2011, 04:21 PM

" a serious collector should be at least amateur ethnologist."

Here,here!!!!

katana · 15th May 2011, 04:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

" a serious collector should be at least amateur ethnologist."

Here,here!!!!

Agree totally

Jim McDougall · 15th May 2011, 05:11 PM

I entirely agree with you guys, and Gustav I am completely in accord with David....brilliantly done!!! and the words of Tim are extremely well placed. I have always believed that in studying ethnographic weapons, the key importance of the weapons is inherently linked to virtually many aspects of the material culture in one way or another. I cannot even name the many instances where motif or symbolism found on weapons is discovered on items which have little to do with warfare.

In many cases we search for clues in books that cover art,religion, superstitions, metalwork, history, archaeology, metaphysics, and as wonderfully illustrated by Nidhi and Jens some time ago...nusimatics.

You guys have perfectly illustrated a most important tenet in the serious study of ethnographic weapons here, thank you all so much!!!

All the best,
Jim

14th May 2011, 07:10 PM	#1
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,295	sorry, I couldn't resist... Here some information from "Indonesian ornamental design" by van der Hoop, 1949, which still is a reference work for this region, and at least the kris hilt is coming from the neighborhood: the whole shape of this panel he calls a "mirror panel", and it is a chinese motif according to him, mostly found with other, like rock and cloud border, in Cirebon. Of course Ming ceramic is full of this kind of panels. Of course this motif seems to be of Cetral-Asian origin; China absorbed much from the cultures of this region, particularly in the period of Yuan dynasty, many people in the administration at this time were muslims. Later many of chinese seamen, which participated in the great expeditions were muslims, most famous beeing Zheng He. Indonesian scholar Slamet Muljana writes: "Zheng He built Chinese Muslim communities first in Palembang, then in San Fa (West Kalimantan), subsequently he founded similar communities along the shores of Java, the Malay Peninsula and the Philippines. They preached Islam according to the Hanafi school of thought and in Chinese language." It probably would be a long shot (as Gavin says ), yet the origin of the motiv IN the panel could most probably be the tree of life, at least regarding kris hilt. (kris hilt is from: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...579#post120579) Attached Images Last edited by Gustav; 14th May 2011 at 10:37 PM.

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version Email this Page	Search this Thread: Advanced Search
Display Modes
Switch to Linear Mode Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode

15th May 2011, 02:25 PM	#3
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Gustav, I just want to add that you have brilliantly shown how studying ethnographic weapons is strongly linked to the decoration and manufacture of other ethnographic 'non-weapon' items.....and have , in 'one stroke' validated this thread and enhanced another. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=13785 Well done Kind Regards David

15th May 2011, 03:40 PM	#4
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,295	David, thank you very much for the kind words! Actually my posts in both threads are saying almost nothing serious regarding the objects. I just sometimes strongly feel the lack of elementar ethnologistic studies in my life, with some basic rules, understandings ... , a serious collector should be at least amateur ethnologist. Kind regards, Gustav

15th May 2011, 04:21 PM	#5
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,891	" a serious collector should be at least amateur ethnologist." Here,here!!!!

15th May 2011, 05:11 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,595	I entirely agree with you guys, and Gustav I am completely in accord with David....brilliantly done!!! and the words of Tim are extremely well placed. I have always believed that in studying ethnographic weapons, the key importance of the weapons is inherently linked to virtually many aspects of the material culture in one way or another. I cannot even name the many instances where motif or symbolism found on weapons is discovered on items which have little to do with warfare. In many cases we search for clues in books that cover art,religion, superstitions, metalwork, history, archaeology, metaphysics, and as wonderfully illustrated by Nidhi and Jens some time ago...nusimatics. You guys have perfectly illustrated a most important tenet in the serious study of ethnographic weapons here, thank you all so much!!! All the best, Jim