reversed hilt on palembang keris

[David]

Originally Posted by Rick

When you change a keris; especially one that is oriented in a specific direction and is old as this one is; do you rob it of its unique history?

What do we think ?
This happened by accident ??

It won't be the same keris .

Well, pre-war collection or not, i don't think it's possible to really speculate when or under what circumstances this hilt met this keris. Perhaps the pesi did become bent somehow, though the photos don't show it as being much out of line. It is possible though that this hilt was never properly fitted to this blade.
It does seem to me that the odds are against this hilt being fitted for left hand use based on what would seem to be a strong cultural avoidance of left-handed use. I am more willing to go with a mis-fitted hilt or an accident to the pesi than a complete dismissal of a cultural taboo.

[rasdan]

@ Lew - Nice keris!! Love how the batang sarung curves..

@ Willem - Very nice blade. It is hard to get a keris like this with 16 pamor layers (from what I can see) and still have good control between the layers. Most of keris like this that I had seen will only have 8 layers and even that the control is often not very good. Also, to me, the extra condong of the blade gives it an extra aggressive look.

I think the way some keris hilts are previously fixed (for lefty or right) probably can be seen at the bend of the tang. Some Malay keris will have a slight bend of the tang towards either side of the blade (if you see it from the front of the gandik). Probably to suit a lefty or a right handed person.

I noticed Javanese keris also have this feature. This is probably because that particular keris used to have a different style Javanese hilt (deity, demon etc) previously where the hilt is facing to one side as opposed to the standardised Javanese hilts where the hilt faces the gandik as we normally see. Of course not all keris with deity or demon hilts will have a bend tang. It is a matter of preference probably; the same goes for Malay keris.

The cool part about the standardised Javanese hilt is that it is ambidextrous. To me this is very convenient. Not that I had seen many keris, but I had never seen a Javanese keris with a tang bend for a lefty. (Probaby due to the ambidextrous hilt, preference and reasons that Mr Maisey had explained)

I had seen several Peninsula keris tang that are bend as if it is suited for a left handed person. Probably in the Peninsula, keris is still primarily regarded as a weapon and maybe to the Malays it does not matter which hand you use to give somebody a stab

[Alam Shah]

Originally Posted by rasdan

I think the way some keris hilts are previously fixed (for lefty or right) probably can be seen at the bend of the tang. Some Malay keris will have a slight bend of the tang towards either side of the blade (if you see it from the front of the gandik). Probably to suit a lefty or a right handed person. I had seen several Peninsula keris tang that are bend as if it is suited for a left handed person.

Yup, I seen quite a fair bit..

Originally Posted by rasdan

Probably in the Peninsula, keris is still primarily regarded as a weapon and maybe to the Malays it does not matter which hand you use to give somebody a stab

Those that comes from Riau and Palembang, the short variation also seems to have quite a number of them tilted at the tang..

[rasdan]

Originally Posted by Alam Shah

Those that comes from Riau and Palembang, the short variation also seems to have quite a number of them tilted at the tang..

Yes, I agree with you.

[BluErf]

Shahrial shd find this familiar.

Always called it the batman sheath. From South Sumatra, but not sure exactly where. It has been associated with Palembang, but I think it is a region off Palembang. I've seen quite a number of this type of sheath, and I think it is a regional style.

[BluErf]

The blade.

[David]

Originally Posted by BluErf

Shahrial shd find this familiar.

Always called it the batman sheath. From South Sumatra, but not sure exactly where. It has been associated with Palembang, but I think it is a region off Palembang. I've seen quite a number of this type of sheath, and I think it is a regional style.

I love this keris...

[Jean]

Originally Posted by BluErf

Shahrial shd find this familiar.

Always called it the batman sheath. From South Sumatra, but not sure exactly where. It has been associated with Palembang, but I think it is a region off Palembang. I've seen quite a number of this type of sheath, and I think it is a regional style.

This piece is deemed to originate from Jambi because of the wide blade especially. However I cannot guarantee it and I bought it without hilt so the combination may not be correct.

[David]

Please forgive me, but i have lost the direction of this thread. I do, of course, understand that threads morph from one topic to another, but i am not certain exactly what we are trying to determine at this point, though i am enjoying the examples being shown...

[PenangsangII]

Originally Posted by Jean

This piece is deemed to originate from Jambi because of the wide blade especially. However I cannot guarantee it and I bought it without hilt so the combination may not be correct.

I agree with Jambi provenance due to historical evidence - Pamalayu by Kertanagara of Singhasari in late 13th Century. Indeed its a Sumatra Jambi blade with a lot of Singhasari flavor.

[asomotif]

Please forgive me, but i have lost the direction of this thread.

Sorry, probably the direction got lost because I did not reply yet.
But I also like the pictures that are being posted now. Please continue

I think the way some keris hilts are previously fixed (for lefty or right) probably can be seen at the bend of the tang. Some Malay keris will have a slight bend of the tang towards either side of the blade (if you see it from the front of the gandik). Probably to suit a lefty or a right handed person.

@Rasdan
The peksi bends towards the front of the gandik, but unfortunately there is no bend to either side of the blade.

The issue you have is that the hilt seems to be sitting a bit too tall. The keris coming from a pre-WW2 collection may not preclude the hilt being switched at some point before it went into the collection. If I may may make an observation, the hilt's finishing is not the same as the sheath's. We could argue that it is because the hilt is handled a lot, and the finishing's all rubbed off

@Bluerf
Correct, the hilt is sitting to tall in right hand position and it fits like a glove in left hand position. The hillt is made of horn (not wood), therefore it has a different finish. In this collection there where a few other weapons also in complete original configuration. (including a peuwarot ) So I am pretty confident that his hilt is original to the blade.

It fits so smooth in left hand position that I really think that it is the original configuration and based on reactions in this thread I will keep it in left hand configuration.

All I need now is a nice matching pendokok.
Any suggestions if this type can be bought somewhere ?

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by asomotif

All I need now is a nice matching pendokok.
Any suggestions if this type can be bought somewhere ?

Very difficult, I look already very long for one. Maybe ask a silver smith if he can work one for you.

Regards,

Detlef

[asomotif]

Originally Posted by Sajen

Maybe ask a silver smith if he can work one for you.

Maybe I can give it a try myself. without the fancy repouse work that seems to be a profession on its own.

[Alam Shah]

Originally Posted by David

Well, pre-war collection or not, i don't think it's possible to really speculate when or under what circumstances this hilt met this keris. Perhaps the pesi did become bent somehow, though the photos don't show it as being much out of line. It is possible though that this hilt was never properly fitted to this blade.
It does seem to me that the odds are against this hilt being fitted for left hand use based on what would seem to be a strong cultural avoidance of left-handed use. I am more willing to go with a mis-fitted hilt or an accident to the pesi than a complete dismissal of a cultural taboo.

Well David, law of the land is different from place to place. In some places, it's the survival of the fittest. In those scenarios, one tends to custom-fit the ergonomics of one's weapon and fighting techniques/style. This specific Palembang form, we tend to see it a lot in 'no-frill' configurations, mean simple blades. I've seen hundreds of this keris form from time to time. There's lots of tilting (condong), some when the blade is less tilted or curved, I've seen it modified by adjusting the bent at the tang, there are those like Willem's piece, some are set in fixed position (with damar, I presume).. I'm not good at explaining.. but if you've seen it, you'll know what I mean..