Putting together a museum exhibit linking Java keris to Philippine kris

[tom hyle]

BTW kris is not a specialty of mine or anything, but from what I've seen available in English/on the internet/including this forum, all of the earliest archaeological evidence (which is scant) is from the mainland Asia.
Of course, it is neccessary to determine "what is kris"
Is it forward leaned blade?
forward curved blade?
the finger grips?
the guard shaped as part of the blade?
the guard shaped as part of the blade but a seperate piece of metal (seperate or true ganga)?
However, AFAIK the matter is unresolved and all responsible experts admit as much.

[VANDOO]

I SUSPECT YOU HAVE GRABBED THE TIP OF A TAIL STICKING OUT OF MURKY WATER FOR FUN AND NOW HAVE FOUND THERE IS AN ALLIGATOR ATTACHED TO IT.

YOU ARE ON THE RIGHT TRACK IN KEEPING THE EXHIBIT SIMPLE AS IT WILL BE MOSTLY FOR PEOPLE WHO KNOW NOTHING ABOUT THE KERIS/KRIS AND WILL HAVE NO INTEREST IN LEARNING ALL ABOUT THEM. TO MOST IT WILL JUST BE A DAYS ENTERTAINMENT SO DON'T TRY TO COVER TOO MUCH. LOTS OF GOOD EXAMPLES WILL GO OVER MUCH BETTER THAN THE MOST ACCURATE AND DETAILED WRITTEN DISCOURSE. HISTORY IS GOOD IF YOU HAVE ONE OF THE NICE POSTERS OF THE MARINES ENGAGING THE MORO IT WOULD FIT IN WELL WITH A SHORT WRITTEN ACCOUNT OF THE GENERAL CONFLICT AND THAT BATTLE. GOOD PICTURES OF PEOPLE CARRYING THESE WEAPONS OR MAKING THEM AND PERHAPS A WALL MOUNTED AND STATUE KERIS HOLDER. A PICTURE OF A KERIS WITH ALL PARTS LABELED AND A PICTURE OF A KRIS ALSO LABLED PERHAPS A MAP OR TWO. A BIT ABOUT TRADITION, STORIES MAGICAL AND FACTUAL AND TALISMANS AND THE WARRIORS BELIEFS IN THEM.
THE LONG OBSCURE ROAD
THE EVOLUTION, TRADITIONS AND REGIONAL VARIATIONS OF THE KERIS/KRIS

I HAVE THOUGHT OF DOING SOMETHING SIMILAR AT MUSEUMS HERE BUT HAVE FOUND LOCAL CURATORS TO BE POLITICIANS WHO ARE NOT INTERESTED IN SUCH THINGS.

[KuKulzA28]

Wow, there is a lot of debate and information being brought up here, but I don't know if it is all directly and immediately pertinent to Bill's mission here.

I think for the average guy, it needs to be simpler. I remember when I was just learning about the keris/kris. That was only maybe 2-3 years ago...

Maybe this is more what Bill is looking for...


Hook: Start with an eye-catcher... something to get people interested
Define: What the hell is a keris/kris? Why should we care? Where is it from?

So now the people are in, they are interested, they want to know more.

Context: Who used them? What for? What time period...
Expand: Touch on the romantic, brutal, spiritual, bloody, golden heydays of the keris... give a little bit about its economic, political, social, spiritual, and combative backgrounds... stuff that'll interest anyone.

Now the people are eager to know more about the history. Not only the keris and how it developed but also the people, their culture, when their history intersects with Islam, then with Westerners, and the modern-day...

History: Follow the path of the keris, from Java (as far as we know) to the Malaysian areas and Bangsamoro
In-depth: Highlight specific case studies of keris... Javanese, Balinese, Moro... that way you can give your audience an in-depth look at more specific examples... highlight similarities and differences between the various case studies... maybe even attach a personal story to each kris if you can find its provenance and the story of its original owner... a Javanese prince? a Moro datu?

Now people are thinking wow... I didn't even know about Java or the Moros... I didn't even know about kris! I want one! Where can I get more books on them?!

Today: It's not all old-bones and dusty history, it's still very much alive!!! Elaborate on how the keris/kris is still very much part of the cultures in maritime SE Asia and how some aspects of it are in the past, and others still very much alive. How the pandays/empus of today make them and how in some ways it is a dying art... but forever a powerful symbol in the Malay world.

..and that way you have accomplished your mission... you have drawn them in, given them a decent amount of information in a simple way, and gotten them interested in the objects and thus the cultures...

following this style of template/guideline, you keris gurus can fill in your knowledge... don't overwhelm your audience all at once! Don't get into the intricacies, esoteric details, or obscure names that only keris experts would know!


...and prices on kris will continue to sky-rocket!





I hope you all take this positively... it's just all too often I see experts inundating others with their knowledge - too much water drowns a plant, too little starves it, but enough causes it to have the energy and the stimuli to keep growing and expanding it's root network...

make it a simple, organized, logic progression that will take the museum-visitor by the hand and lead him/her on a journey that will leave him/her more knowledgeable, having new appreciation, and tantalized and wanting to know more!

[David]

Originally Posted by tom hyle

BTW kris is not a specialty of mine or anything, but from what I've seen available in English/on the internet/including this forum, all of the earliest archaeological evidence (which is scant) is from the mainland Asia.
Of course, it is neccessary to determine "what is kris"
Is it forward leaned blade?
forward curved blade?
the finger grips?
the guard shaped as part of the blade?
the guard shaped as part of the blade but a seperate piece of metal (seperate or true ganga)?
However, AFAIK the matter is unresolved and all responsible experts admit as much.

You might want to get off the internet Tom and try a few good, more in depth, books on the subject. I can name you a few if you are truly interested. While they are not perfect either, the internet has a way of recycling quite a bit of false information on the subject and only provide a very small snippet of information, good or bad.
Again, most scholars place the origins of the keris as we know it in Jawa. Most do not consider it unresolved, but i do agree that all would be wise to keep and open mind to any new evidence that might surface in the future. Did this form develop from some previous blade that we would not necessarily recognize as a keris. Well sure, the Javanese people did not invent the concept of the dagger. But there is no evidence to my knowledge of anything resembling the specific form of a keris existing in any part of Asia prior to the emergence of the keris in Java. When the archaeologists dig one up in India or Tibet or whereever i'd be more than happy to consider it.
Also it is the idea of the gonjo that is necessary for a blade to be a keris. Yes Tom, gonjo iras blades are considered "real" keris. Further, the term "gonjo iras" does not mean "without gonjo" as you suggested early in this thead. It means the the gonjo and blade are "one". So you can see from this that the idea of the gonjo continues even if it is not a separate piece from the blade.

[tom hyle]

I'm told repeatedly that iras gongo translates "without" a gonjgo (anyone have an actual literal translation of the words for us?), but yes, as I think I said, it does indeed actually mean without a SEPERATE gongo; ie with an integral gonga, or as you say "blade and gonjo are one". Same thing.
The archaeological evidence from India is AFAIK in the form of very old sculptures depicting double-edged forward-curved daggers. This is why I said we must ask first "what is kriss?" but also if kris (as such, defined in tight terms with the elephant the seperate but blade-section guard etc whatever) is from Java (for which I've seen no evidence, but just a lot of repeated declaring), then that does not invalidate the discussion and relation of daggers such as the Hindoo ones that may be ancestral to kris without yet being kris per se. It would be silly to discuss the falchion while denying the relevance of the sax. Now when it comes to Thailand and mainland Malaysia there may be more direct archaeological evidence (ie actual blades).
As in many debates in many feilds I find there are those who declare that things are a certain way, but who seem to ignore evidence or twist definitions to do so. If you boil it down to "the Java kris is from Java" then yeah, the Java kris is from Java, but if you really want to explore where the form originates rather than defining kris per se by Java kris features and then proceeding in a circle, the matter is a bit less clear.
I came back to check out this particularly fascinating thread because I was reading the top 10 wierd swords thread and someone had commented on the kris as noncombative, BTW; I was going to refer that person to this tread, but since I'm now replying to it, that should bring it to the top anyway. My comments on the deadliness of kriss herein are, I think, pretty elucidatory