Iron ramrod in xv century

Spiridonov · 1st March 2011, 01:22 PM

Hello, Michael! Thank You for your comment and this beautifull photos! I think that hooks of ramrods from your photos has slightly straightened (the hooks are not full but I thinks that it was full). And else I think that it is not for cleaning. It is absolutly clear becaurse this hooks are much bigger than the calibre.

Matchlock · 3rd March 2011, 09:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spiridonov

Hello, Michael! Thank You for your comment and this beautifull photos! I think that hooks of ramrods from your photos has slightly straightened (the hooks are not full but I thinks that it was full). And else I think that it is not for cleaning. It is absolutly clear because this hooks are much bigger than the calibre.

Hello Alexander,

Actually it's my turn to thank you for both your great and scientifically important discovery of identifying iron ramrods as a hitherto by far neglected means of loading firearms as early as the 15th century, and for your hint that the hook shaped bent finials of the two existing ramrods I photographed were obviously slightly re-bent at some later time.

Best wishes,
Michael

Spiridonov · 14th March 2011, 08:42 PM

Ramrod with hook else:
Giovanni Battini, c1460. Bodleian Library, Oxford, MS Canon Class Lat. 81, fol. 49v.

Matchlock · 14th March 2011, 09:14 PM

Absolutely superb find, Alexander!

I would be a very lonely guy on the forum without your brilliant inputs! Our minds sure are two of a kind.

If there is a higher resolution available, please email me!

Best,
Michael

Spiridonov · 14th March 2011, 09:44 PM

unfortunately, I have not higher resolution version. This picture found one good man from russian historic forum. He has not highres too

But I still find it

fernando · 14th March 2011, 11:23 PM

Ha, the encountering of two geniuses

Matchlock · 15th March 2011, 12:29 AM

Exactly, 'Nando,

Though you of course are the third in our alliance, amigo

- just hope you would come on in more often on these subjects!

We really feel sorta lost here, no kidding.

Best,
Michl

Matchlock · 15th March 2011, 12:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spiridonov

unfortunately, I have not higher resolution version. This picture found one good man from russian historic forum. He has not highres too

But I still find it

If anyone does, Alexander, you will!

And I look forward to that day.

m

Matchlock · 15th March 2011, 01:03 AM

Here is a full view and a close-up of the South Tyrolian fresco Alexander posted above.

It is, as I wrote in an earlier thread, preserved on the wall of a 15th c. guardroom of the fortress Schloss Issogne, Aosta Valley, and can be dated closely to ca. 1495.

Please note the hooked iron ramrod seen in front of the ramrod channel of the lower Landsknecht arquebus, which I had hitherto overlooked - my old eyes begin to lose their light ...

However, also note the cylindrical tubular iron finial (Setzerkopf) of the - most certainly - wooden ramrod shoved into the stock of the uppper arquebus - obviously the more modern loading tool!

We can but speculate why the wooden ramrod prevailed with both 'military' and sporting guns until the first half of the eighteenth century ...

Best,
Michael

Matchlock · 15th March 2011, 01:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spiridonov

Ramrod with hook else:
Giovanni Battini, c1460. Bodleian Library, Oxford, MS Canon Class Lat. 81, fol. 49v.

I have to admit that I am much surprised to see the down-curved form of the butt as early as the mid-15th c.!!! One never stops learning.

You really made a singular find with this, Alexander!

I feel free to attach a re-worked close-up of the scene. Please note the arquebusier on the right aiming his gun left-handed and firing it by holding a glowing piece of tinder against the touch hole on top of the barrel. Matchlocks were not yet common at that period of time.

Best,
Michael

Andi · 25th April 2013, 07:34 PM

In August 1848 not only the well known Tannenberg handgonnes were exavated from a water cisterne at Tanneberg Castle (Hesse, Germany) but also an iron ramrod lying near the handgonnes. The find can be securely dated to 1399 when Tannenberg Caste was sieged and destroyed by the City of Frankfurt. The find is publised in J. von Hefner, J. W. Wolf: Die Burg Trannenberg und ihre Ausgrabungen. Schwerberg, Frankfurt 1850 Online. On table VII the ramrod is marked with a "D" and here you can see its dimentsions compared to the handgonne. Till yet I don't know where the ramrod is kept or if it is still survived after the excavations some 160 year ago. The handgonne is kept at Germanisches Nationalmuseum in Nuremberg and I hope so the ramrod too.

Matchlock · 5th October 2013, 04:42 PM

Splendid, Andi,

Great job - thanks a lot!

When your are in Bavaria you should come and see me and my collection. Now how does that sound? Inciting, doesn't it?!

Best,
Michael

Andi · 5th October 2013, 10:52 PM

Hello Matchlock!

Thank you for your offer. Of course it is very inciting and it would a great honour to me. Thank you also for bringing my post to light again, as I gathered some more articles on the Tannenbergbüchse.

According to Joachim von Wlassatys article Nachlass der Raubritter - 600 Jahre Tannenbergbüchse in Deutsches Waffen Journal 6/1999 the ramrod was separated (and the loading of the gonne and the rest of the survived tiller were removed from Tannenbergbüchse

) before the Tannenbergbüchse was transferred to Germanisches Nationalmuseum in Nuremberg. As far as I interpret the article the ramrod (along with other finds) was probably lost during bombardements of Hessisches Landesmuseum Darmstadt in 1944

14th March 2011, 08:42 PM	#3
Spiridonov Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Russia, Leningrad Posts: 355	Ramrod with hook else: Giovanni Battini, c1460. Bodleian Library, Oxford, MS Canon Class Lat. 81, fol. 49v. Attached Images

15th March 2011, 01:03 AM	#9
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Here is a full view and a close-up of the South Tyrolian fresco Alexander posted above. It is, as I wrote in an earlier thread, preserved on the wall of a 15th c. guardroom of the fortress Schloss Issogne, Aosta Valley, and can be dated closely to ca. 1495. Please note the hooked iron ramrod seen in front of the ramrod channel of the lower Landsknecht arquebus, which I had hitherto overlooked - my old eyes begin to lose their light ... However, also note the cylindrical tubular iron finial (Setzerkopf) of the - most certainly - wooden ramrod shoved into the stock of the uppper arquebus - obviously the more modern loading tool! We can but speculate why the wooden ramrod prevailed with both 'military' and sporting guns until the first half of the eighteenth century ... Best, Michael Attached Images Last edited by Matchlock; 15th March 2011 at 02:24 AM.

25th April 2013, 07:34 PM	#11
Andi Member Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: Halstenbek, Germany Posts: 203	In August 1848 not only the well known Tannenberg handgonnes were exavated from a water cisterne at Tanneberg Castle (Hesse, Germany) but also an iron ramrod lying near the handgonnes. The find can be securely dated to 1399 when Tannenberg Caste was sieged and destroyed by the City of Frankfurt. The find is publised in J. von Hefner, J. W. Wolf: Die Burg Trannenberg und ihre Ausgrabungen. Schwerberg, Frankfurt 1850 Online. On table VII the ramrod is marked with a "D" and here you can see its dimentsions compared to the handgonne. Till yet I don't know where the ramrod is kept or if it is still survived after the excavations some 160 year ago. The handgonne is kept at Germanisches Nationalmuseum in Nuremberg and I hope so the ramrod too. Attached Images Last edited by Andi; 25th April 2013 at 08:22 PM.

5th October 2013, 04:42 PM	#12
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Splendid, Andi, Great job - thanks a lot! When your are in Bavaria you should come and see me and my collection. Now how does that sound? Inciting, doesn't it?! Best, Michael Last edited by Matchlock; 5th October 2013 at 06:25 PM.

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1st March 2011, 01:22 PM	#1
Spiridonov Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Russia, Leningrad Posts: 355	Hello, Michael! Thank You for your comment and this beautifull photos! I think that hooks of ramrods from your photos has slightly straightened (the hooks are not full but I thinks that it was full). And else I think that it is not for cleaning. It is absolutly clear becaurse this hooks are much bigger than the calibre.

14th March 2011, 09:14 PM	#4
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Absolutely superb find, Alexander! I would be a very lonely guy on the forum without your brilliant inputs! Our minds sure are two of a kind. If there is a higher resolution available, please email me! Best, Michael

14th March 2011, 09:44 PM	#5
Spiridonov Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Russia, Leningrad Posts: 355	unfortunately, I have not higher resolution version. This picture found one good man from russian historic forum. He has not highres too But I still find it

14th March 2011, 11:23 PM	#6
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Ha, the encountering of two geniuses

15th March 2011, 12:29 AM	#7
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Exactly, 'Nando, Though you of course are the third in our alliance, amigo - just hope you would come on in more often on these subjects! We really feel sorta lost here, no kidding. Best, Michl

5th October 2013, 10:52 PM	#13
Andi Member Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: Halstenbek, Germany Posts: 203	Hello Matchlock! Thank you for your offer. Of course it is very inciting and it would a great honour to me. Thank you also for bringing my post to light again, as I gathered some more articles on the Tannenbergbüchse. According to Joachim von Wlassatys article Nachlass der Raubritter - 600 Jahre Tannenbergbüchse in Deutsches Waffen Journal 6/1999 the ramrod was separated (and the loading of the gonne and the rest of the survived tiller were removed from Tannenbergbüchse ) before the Tannenbergbüchse was transferred to Germanisches Nationalmuseum in Nuremberg. As far as I interpret the article the ramrod (along with other finds) was probably lost during bombardements of Hessisches Landesmuseum Darmstadt in 1944