Labels, true or just heaps of bull****

Tim Simmons · 13th December 2010, 05:24 PM

This is what the auction house says.

Tim:

Yes, we did sell a portion of a collection reputed to be from the Black Pipe collection.

The collector that sold these items said he purchased them in South Dakota. We have not other provenance for the items sold. Only his word.

This is all that I recall about the same.

Hope this is of some help.

Jayson Shobe

So are these pieces from that portion or another? Am I decided they are genuine/authentic? well perhaps I could be. It all depends on what % of people one believes involved in the circle are avaricious toerag liars or honest caring and sharing

thats life. One thing is I have learnt much about Native American tanning. I know this material would not need the talents of master art forgers to reproduce. Obviouly I would like to believe they are the real thing. I do know much effort went into these, the chioce of skins. tanning and the hole in the flint stone. If so I got a good deal

.

Lew · 13th December 2010, 06:23 PM

Tim

As far as Native American clubs go I always treat them as fakes due to the fact that real old ones are so rare they are in museums and private collections most go for thousands of dollars. Although the club on the left looks good to me but take the info provided by the seller with a large grain of salt

Billman · 13th December 2010, 06:41 PM

Labels and certificates of provenenace are only worth anything if you know the reputation of the dealer/seller... Even so, reputable dealers get sucked in - see my comments on a Pennsylvanian German billhook (fascine knife) offered for sale in the USA in 2010 that was bought in Germany in 2009...
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...?t=6972&page=2

I have also seen many European edged tools that only date from the mid to late 19th century being sold as medieval, complete with a Certificate of Authenticity.. The shape and the method of manufacture may go back to the Middle Ages - the give away is the maker's stamp... name and village allow a precise dating... Materials are much more difficult to date - late 19th century mild steel was very similar to wrought iron, and in fact wrought iron was still being made as late as the early 20th century (and is being made again in the UK at the Blists Hill Museum at Coalbrookdale). Even in the 21st century, Bernard Solon, in Orléans (France) is forge welding high carbon steel to a softer mild steel body for his vineyard hoes.... He also uses the same name and trademark as his great grandfather, Alexis - a few years' rust and a 21st century tool will be indistinguishable from a mid 19th century one... Not a fake, but a continuation of a family tradition....

David · 13th December 2010, 06:48 PM

Sorry to still be so doubtful, but doesn't the paint on that second example look just a little bit too fresh to be authentic...

fearn · 13th December 2010, 07:02 PM

David, if a Lakota craftsman made it on the Rez back not so very long ago, is it genuine or not? I haven't seen anyone suggesting that it's definitely antique.

That's as opposed to me making said stick out of local ingredients, seeing as I'm white and not in South Dakota. Any Lakota club I made would definitely be fake.

Best,

F

Tim Simmons · 14th December 2010, 09:23 PM

I just say this then I will shut up.

I have looked at the paint and other parts through the magnifing optics on our Puk welding kit, which most be at least x20. The paint, is not of any kind I am used to, sadly I have no idea how to discribe it.
There is a chance that they were collected, not as old. at the turn of the 19th cent and have been stored in boxes? or even under glass for decades? So the paint would look fresh. What about all those mint fresh Asian arms we were shown from the Wallace collection?

David · 14th December 2010, 11:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fearn

David, if a Lakota craftsman made it on the Rez back not so very long ago, is it genuine or not? I haven't seen anyone suggesting that it's definitely antique.
That's as opposed to me making said stick out of local ingredients, seeing as I'm white and not in South Dakota. Any Lakota club I made would definitely be fake.

Sorry Fearn, but i was working under the assumption that Tim was hoping these were antique clubs, not something fresh off the "rez".
I also have not seen any examples of authenticated work that looks anything like this so i a hoping someone finds some images that might verify this for Tim.
I still think this binding work looks pretty sloppy compared to the Native clubs i have seen. That goes for the paint job as well. But i guess not every Native American was a master craftsman. Would love to see anything that can verify this one way or another.

Nagawarrior · 15th December 2010, 01:00 AM

The label on this Mandaya sword I believe is honest and helps date the item. I traced the name on it to a Kentucky politician that apparently liked to travel at the turn of the last century.

See thread discussing the sword here.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=11397

VANDOO · 13th December 2010, 06:38 PM

IF GIVEN THE CHOICE I WOULD RATHER HAVE A TAG WITH SOME INFORMATION THAN FOR ANY INFORMATION TO BE OMITED AND LOST. THE INFORMATION ON THE TAGS NOW GOES WITH THESE ITEMS AS THEY TRAVEL ALONG FROM ONE COLLECTOR TO ANOTHER. THE TAGS ARE RECENT BUT THE INFORMATION MAY OR MAY NOT BE CORRECT EVEN IF THEY DID COME FROM THE COLECTION MENTIONED IT DOES NOT MAKE IT CERTIAN THEY ARE AUTHENTIC. MANY MUSEUMS AND COLECTIONS TRIBAL OR OTHERWISE HAVE AQUIRED ITEMS THAT ARE TRIBAL MADE BUT NOT OLD. I HAVE EXAMPLES OF WEAPONS IN MY COLECTION THAT ARE NOT OLD BUT ARE WELL MADE, I CAN'T AFFORD AN OLD EXAMPLE SO SETTLE FOR A GOOD EXAMPLE OF THE FORM IF IT IS FAIRLY PRICED.
BOTH OF YOUR CLUBS SHOW GOOD WORKMANSHIP AND FOLLOW TRADITIONAL TECKNIQUES AND MATERIALS IN THEIR CONSTRUCTION. NEITHER ONE IS OF THE MORE ATTRACTIVE FORMS OF AMERICAN WAR CLUBS. THEY ARE THE ONES USUALY FAKED AS THEY BRING MORE MONEY. IT IS LIKELY THE INFORMATION ON THE TAGS IS REAL AS WHO EVER HEARD OF THE COLLECTION BEFORE?? IF IT SAID IT CAME FROM THE MET OR LOUVE I WOULD WORRY MORE.

THESE CLUBS ADD TWO NEW FORMS OF CLUB TO YOUR COLECTION AND LOOK GOOD SO ENJOY

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13th December 2010, 05:24 PM	#1
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,856	This is what the auction house says. Tim: Yes, we did sell a portion of a collection reputed to be from the Black Pipe collection. The collector that sold these items said he purchased them in South Dakota. We have not other provenance for the items sold. Only his word. This is all that I recall about the same. Hope this is of some help. Jayson Shobe So are these pieces from that portion or another? Am I decided they are genuine/authentic? well perhaps I could be. It all depends on what % of people one believes involved in the circle are avaricious toerag liars or honest caring and sharing thats life. One thing is I have learnt much about Native American tanning. I know this material would not need the talents of master art forgers to reproduce. Obviouly I would like to believe they are the real thing. I do know much effort went into these, the chioce of skins. tanning and the hole in the flint stone. If so I got a good deal .

13th December 2010, 06:23 PM	#2
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Tim As far as Native American clubs go I always treat them as fakes due to the fact that real old ones are so rare they are in museums and private collections most go for thousands of dollars. Although the club on the left looks good to me but take the info provided by the seller with a large grain of salt

13th December 2010, 06:41 PM	#3
Billman Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 129	Labels and certificates of provenenace are only worth anything if you know the reputation of the dealer/seller... Even so, reputable dealers get sucked in - see my comments on a Pennsylvanian German billhook (fascine knife) offered for sale in the USA in 2010 that was bought in Germany in 2009... http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...?t=6972&page=2 I have also seen many European edged tools that only date from the mid to late 19th century being sold as medieval, complete with a Certificate of Authenticity.. The shape and the method of manufacture may go back to the Middle Ages - the give away is the maker's stamp... name and village allow a precise dating... Materials are much more difficult to date - late 19th century mild steel was very similar to wrought iron, and in fact wrought iron was still being made as late as the early 20th century (and is being made again in the UK at the Blists Hill Museum at Coalbrookdale). Even in the 21st century, Bernard Solon, in Orléans (France) is forge welding high carbon steel to a softer mild steel body for his vineyard hoes.... He also uses the same name and trademark as his great grandfather, Alexis - a few years' rust and a 21st century tool will be indistinguishable from a mid 19th century one... Not a fake, but a continuation of a family tradition....

13th December 2010, 06:48 PM	#4
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,220	Sorry to still be so doubtful, but doesn't the paint on that second example look just a little bit too fresh to be authentic...

13th December 2010, 07:02 PM	#5
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	David, if a Lakota craftsman made it on the Rez back not so very long ago, is it genuine or not? I haven't seen anyone suggesting that it's definitely antique. That's as opposed to me making said stick out of local ingredients, seeing as I'm white and not in South Dakota. Any Lakota club I made would definitely be fake. Best, F

14th December 2010, 09:23 PM	#6
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,856	I just say this then I will shut up. I have looked at the paint and other parts through the magnifing optics on our Puk welding kit, which most be at least x20. The paint, is not of any kind I am used to, sadly I have no idea how to discribe it. There is a chance that they were collected, not as old. at the turn of the 19th cent and have been stored in boxes? or even under glass for decades? So the paint would look fresh. What about all those mint fresh Asian arms we were shown from the Wallace collection?

15th December 2010, 01:00 AM	#8
Nagawarrior Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Inland Empire, Southern California USA Posts: 160	The label on this Mandaya sword I believe is honest and helps date the item. I traced the name on it to a Kentucky politician that apparently liked to travel at the turn of the last century. See thread discussing the sword here. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=11397

13th December 2010, 06:38 PM	#9
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	IF GIVEN THE CHOICE I WOULD RATHER HAVE A TAG WITH SOME INFORMATION THAN FOR ANY INFORMATION TO BE OMITED AND LOST. THE INFORMATION ON THE TAGS NOW GOES WITH THESE ITEMS AS THEY TRAVEL ALONG FROM ONE COLLECTOR TO ANOTHER. THE TAGS ARE RECENT BUT THE INFORMATION MAY OR MAY NOT BE CORRECT EVEN IF THEY DID COME FROM THE COLECTION MENTIONED IT DOES NOT MAKE IT CERTIAN THEY ARE AUTHENTIC. MANY MUSEUMS AND COLECTIONS TRIBAL OR OTHERWISE HAVE AQUIRED ITEMS THAT ARE TRIBAL MADE BUT NOT OLD. I HAVE EXAMPLES OF WEAPONS IN MY COLECTION THAT ARE NOT OLD BUT ARE WELL MADE, I CAN'T AFFORD AN OLD EXAMPLE SO SETTLE FOR A GOOD EXAMPLE OF THE FORM IF IT IS FAIRLY PRICED. BOTH OF YOUR CLUBS SHOW GOOD WORKMANSHIP AND FOLLOW TRADITIONAL TECKNIQUES AND MATERIALS IN THEIR CONSTRUCTION. NEITHER ONE IS OF THE MORE ATTRACTIVE FORMS OF AMERICAN WAR CLUBS. THEY ARE THE ONES USUALY FAKED AS THEY BRING MORE MONEY. IT IS LIKELY THE INFORMATION ON THE TAGS IS REAL AS WHO EVER HEARD OF THE COLLECTION BEFORE?? IF IT SAID IT CAME FROM THE MET OR LOUVE I WOULD WORRY MORE. THESE CLUBS ADD TWO NEW FORMS OF CLUB TO YOUR COLECTION AND LOOK GOOD SO ENJOY