Sulawesi (toraja?) keris

[Jean]

Originally Posted by Alam Shah

Hi Jean,
Your keris blade is of better workmanship, a well-made piece of Sulawesi standard.. However, the base areas where the 'goldish' material is, seems to be 'disturbed' at the greneng, making the flaring area seems a little awkward..

Shahrial

Hello Sharial,
I fully agree that my piece is not an art masterpiece but I think a genuine Toraja kris made by a local smith for wearing during burial and wedding ceremonies especially. The base of my blade is not harmonious and quite similar to Marco's one (ganja iras, thick and roughly carved gandik and kembang kacang), I don't think that there is anything wrong under the gilt silver plate but I will check. I agree that Marco's kris is a genuine piece also but of common quality, I visited the Toraja area 15 years ago and there were absolutely no genuine or even tourist piece for sale so these pieces are quite rare to find.
Best regards
Jean

[Alam Shah]

Hi Jean,

Thanks Jean for your feedback. I'm not saying that it's not genuine, but merely stating what I see from the posted picture.. I agree with your opinion on both keris. Quality do differ. Toraja is capable of producing beautiful workmanship.. it is evident in the bladed weapons from that region, the dua lalan, etc. Coming back to keris, here's a link to another toraja keris, (( link )).. although the picture is not too clear and the blade is not visible.. the toraja form and quality workmanship is evident..

Best regards,
Shahrial

[Jean]

Originally Posted by Alam Shah

Hi Jean,

Coming back to keris, here's a link to another toraja keris, although the picture is not too clear and the blade is not visible.. the toraja form and quality workmanship is evident..

Best regards,
Shahrial

Hello Shahrial,
Very beautiful kris, obviously not in the same category as mine! But is it Toraja or rather from Makassar/Gowa/ Bima? The picture is not clear but the hilt rather looks to depict Arjuna or Bima than a Toraja ancestor.
Thank you and best regards
Jean

[Marcokeris]

The blade of my keris is , of course, very simple. i suppose the blade was put inside the sarong subsequently because the base of blade is more little of the hole of sarong.
I agree that is a ceremony keris (but not for rich people).
I like a lot the quality of work of the sarong and selut. Also i like the type of glasses used in decoration and i suppose they are old like sarong.
When i bought the keris the blade was very very rusty and dirty then i try to stain it : it was really very difficult because i did't try to separate the blade from the hit.... and when i used water to clean warangan the blade comes, in a very fast way, very dark.
About material sarong i don't know what could be: is metal over a wood core.
IMO tourist keris are completey different

[Alam Shah]

Originally Posted by Jean

Hello Shahrial,
Very beautiful kris, obviously not in the same category as mine! But is it Toraja or rather from Makassar/Gowa/ Bima? The picture is not clear but the hilt rather looks to depict Arjuna or Bima than a Toraja ancestor.

Hi Jean,
I guess not of the same quality. But what I was getting at is, there are different quality of work. The keris that I've linked, oops! my mistake. While trying to get a quick example, linked to a questionable one. I've watch a documentary about the Torajan some time back, which showed keris, as well. That made me thought that it existed within the culture. Perhaps it is like Northern Nias, where it's an 'imported' culture. For the Torajan, perhaps the influence comes from the south, probably Makassar.

[Jean]

Originally Posted by Alam Shah

Hi Jean,
For the Torajan, perhaps the influence comes from the south, probably Makassar.

Hello Shahrial,
Yes for sure the Toraja krisses are strongly influenced by those from Makassar and the Bugis as there were strong ties between them. By the way I remember to have seen one or two Toraja krisses (not fantastic pieces) in a local museum, may be in Rantepao.
Best regards
Jean

[Jean]

Picture of a Toraja noble woman attending a ceremony with her kris.

[ganjawulung]

Late sharing on Marco's thread. I have some pictures of kerises from Kesultanan Bone of South Sulawesi or known popularly as Kesultanan Bugis too. You may compare the style of these images on Bone keris, with "pangulu tau tau" (human head hilt). These were the Museum Gajah's collection, the National Museum of Jakarta...

GANJAWULUNG

[ganjawulung]

This is also Museum Gajah's Collection on Kesultanan Bone's keris, taken from BlackBerry cellphone...

[David]

Originally Posted by Jean

I visited the Toraja area 15 years ago and there were absolutely no genuine or even tourist piece for sale so these pieces are quite rare to find.

I wonder if this is not because Toraja really has no long standing keris culture to speak of. When did the keris first come to Toraja? It has obviously been incorporated somewhat into their rituals (i believe into their elaborate death ceremonies), but it seems to me that this didn't take place until the 20th century. This particular highland culture of Sulawesi was rather insular before then. Their culture, architecture, symbolism, specific animistic beliefs and rituals, are very unique to the area. Even to this day they are different from the majority of Indonesians as their culture has, for the most part, adopted Protestant Christianity as it's religion, with only a 5% muslim population. Has anyone seen a well provenanced 19th century Torajan keris?
I searched through some photos looking for some Torajan keris culture. It is interesting to note that in the photos below keris are only carried by very specific women in the ceremonies shown. In some of the overview ceremonial images i see no keris present. The keris held by the singular woman is clearly in Javanese dress. I cannot see the dress clearly enough in the image of the two women w/keris to know if there is anything specifically Tojaran about them or if they are Bugis style keris.
Here is a nice overview of the Tojara.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toraja

[David]

Of course i did find this image of a giant statue of a Toraja warrior that stands in Makale. Anyone have an idea when this was made?
Also here is an old image of 3 old warriors with a Dutch Salvation Army official in 1930. Notably missing from their attire is any presence of keris.

[Jean]

Originally Posted by David

http://www.christies.com/LotFinder/l...jectID=2033618

Please note that the saleroom notice from Christie says that:
"The entry should read: Sulawesi, Bugis, gold keris" so this is not a Toraja kris.

[David]

Originally Posted by Jean

Please note that the saleroom notice from Christie says that:
"The entry should read: Sulawesi, Bugis, gold keris" so this is not a Toraja kris.

Yes Jean, i did note that and was going to throw it in with my argument, but forgot, so thank you.
So what exactly is a Torajan keris then. What provenance leads us to believe that either yours or Marcos originated in this very specific culture?

Edit: Oh, i see what happened there. I posted the wrong link in that place. I had meant to post this Wiki page.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toraja
I will also amend that post, thanks, but your remark about this particular keris from Christies still holds true...

[Jean]

Originally Posted by David

Yes Jean, i did note that and was going to throw it in with my argument, but forgot, so thank you.
So what exactly is a Torajan keris then. What provenance leads us to believe that either yours or Marcos originated in this very specific culture?

Edit: Oh, i see what happened there. I posted the wrong link in that place. I had meant to post this Wiki page.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toraja
I will also amend that post, thanks, but your remark about this particular keris from Christies still holds true...

Hello David,
Sorry for the late reply, I was travelling today.
I don't know much about Toraja krisses but 2 main issues:
. The kris was present and an important symbol at least within the Toraja noble population until recently, and I know of 2 Torajan people who owned a gold kris pusaka during my stay in Kalimantan in the 1990's, unfortunately I could not see the pieces (one was stolen, and the other kept in a bank safe!).
. To me the genuine Toraja krisses are derived from the old royal krisses from Makassar/ Gowa/Bima like the specimen from Christie's but the craftsmanship is much inferior, the hilt seems to depict a Toraja ancestor rather than an Hindu hero, and the sampir has a similar shape to the Bugis krisses. I attach the picture of a good replica of a royal South Sulawesi kris so you can see the difference with the Toraja kris from Marco and mine.
Best regards
Jean

[David]

Originally Posted by Jean

I don't know much about Toraja krisses but 2 main issues:
. The kris was present and an important symbol at least within the Toraja noble population until recently, and I know of 2 Torajan people who owned a gold kris pusaka during my stay in Kalimantan in the 1990's, unfortunately I could not see the pieces (one was stolen, and the other kept in a bank safe!).
. To me the genuine Toraja krisses are derived from the old royal krisses from Makassar/ Gowa/Bima like the specimen from Christie's but the craftsmanship is much inferior, the hilt seems to depict a Toraja ancestor rather than an Hindu hero, and the sampir has a similar shape to the Bugis krisses. I attach the picture of a good replica of a royal South Sulawesi kris so you can see the difference with the Toraja kris from Marco and mine.

Perhaps then the keris in Toraja remained in the sphere of noble families only. But still, you say you never actually set eyes on these gold pusaka, so how do you know that they are indigenous Toraja keris and not from some other culture in Sulawesi, Java or elsewhere (Toraja nobles were know to marry nobles from outside their culture on occassion) ? How do you know what quality there were compared to a royal South Sulawesi keris?
Here are the questions i am not hearing answers to:
1. Why don't the 3 Torajan warriors from the 1930 photograph have keris amongst their weapons?
2. Why is it mainly women who seem to me carrying keris in the ceremonies i have shown in both photos and videos when the keris is for the most part a male dominated cultural symbol throughout most of the rest of Indonesia?
3. What evidence do we have that the keris was an important cultural item in Toraja pre, let's say, 1970? 1940? 1909?
4. None of the keris that i can spot in any of the photos or videos seem to be dressed in a similar fashion to either Jean's or Marco's keris. Why?

[David]

Thanks for the image Jean. Is that off the internet because i missed that one. Much in the same dress mode as yours i would say, so strike my question #4 and change "none" to "most"...

[Jean]

Originally Posted by David

Perhaps then the keris in Toraja remained in the sphere of noble families only. But still, you say you never actually set eyes on these gold pusaka, so how do you know that they are indigenous Toraja keris and not from some other culture in Sulawesi, Java or elsewhere (Toraja nobles were know to marry nobles from outside their culture on occassion) ? How do you know what quality there were compared to a royal South Sulawesi keris?
Here are the questions i am not hearing answers to:
1. Why don't the 3 Torajan warriors from the 1930 photograph have keris amongst their weapons?
2. Why is it mainly women who seem to me carrying keris in the ceremonies i have shown in both photos and videos when the keris is for the most part a male dominated cultural symbol throughout most of the rest of Indonesia?
3. What evidence do we have that the keris was an important cultural item in Toraja pre, let's say, 1970? 1940? 1909?
4. None of the keris that i can spot in any of the photos or videos seem to be dressed in a similar fashion to either Jean's or Marco's keris. Why?

Hello David,
I will try to reply but have reached my limits so please consider my comments as personal and uncontrolled opinions only....
I did not actually see the gold krisses from the 2 Toraja gentlemen indeed but saw 1 or 2 pieces in a local museum which from memory were very similar to mine.
Yes, the blades of these krisses were possibly imported especially for the high quality ones, but note the large similarities and peculiar features of the blade from Marco and mine. I personally think that the sheaths & hilts were made locally as they are different from those from South Sulawesi which all have burung style hilts especially.
Question 1. To me the kris rather seems to have been a ceremonial weapon among the Toraja so it has not much to do with a warrior attire. And look at these guys, do they look like nobles or commoners?
Question 2. I have no idea why the women wore the krisses and not the men on the pictures but in the 2 cases which I know, they were clearly the property of the patriarch and passed from father to son AFAIK.
Question3. No idea especially because the Torajas were not well known until the 20th century.
Question 4. Besides my additional picture, the 2 "gold" krisses worn by women on one of your pictures look similar to mine although we cannot see the details. The videos are all recent and the girls wear tourist krisses so I won't rely on them... I will try to find other pictures or references.

Is there any member originating from Sulawesi who could tell us more?
Best regards
Jean

[guwaya]

Originally Posted by Jean

Hello Sharial,
I agree that Marco's kris is a genuine piece also but of common quality, I visited the Toraja area 15 years ago and there were absolutely no genuine or even tourist piece for sale so these pieces are quite rare to find.
Best regards
Jean

Sorry Jean,

I traveld in Sulawesi nearby the same time and as well as in Makassar (Ujung Pandang by that time) as well as in Rantepao I saw and became offered a lot of tourist pieces, and grubbing through the shops I would say I saw more tourist pieces (to use this term) than honest ones.

Additionally by that time Sulawesi Artshop in Kuta/Legian Bali already had two shops offering a lot of Sulawesi touris pieces as well as the terrible brass made Bali hilts set with mostly class-stones.

Again, it is not in my interest to offend enybody - but it has to be said as this are my personal experiences.

guwaya