Who am I

tom hyle · 22nd June 2005, 02:51 PM

It seems like the same figure as #1 (though he holds a club, rather than a statue of a penis, and does he not display a 3rd eye?). #2 is somewhat more different. Both #1 and #2 have a lip or beak edge (#2 definitely doesn't look like a beak; looks like a mammal) that crosses the trunk, so that the trunk emerges from beneath it. #3 is more realistic/naturalistic, as the trunk comes out of the surface of the face, not from below the lip, thoug the nostrils are still there, as said. One thing to consider, as I've mentioned about Africa, is that these people may have not seen elephants in person? Are we running on an assumption that this is Ganesh because of the elephant feature(s)? Is this confirmed by native/documentary sources? Is it possible it's someone else, even? Are the nonelepnant features artistic conventions perhaps grown of ignorance, like Europeans carving dolphins with nose holes in their nose? Or do the combined features illustrate some particular tale/attribute/etc?

Rick · 22nd June 2005, 03:26 PM

Hi Cedric , I think what we're looking at here are two representations (with artistic license) or interpretations of Lord Ganesha . I've got to believe that if it were Garuda eating a snake it would be more obvious as I stated before . The cup at the end of the trunk in the first example is too elephant-like to represent even a part of a snake . One other point , Lord Ganesha is depicted with nostrils above his trunk in many Balinese carvings . I think that this feature tends to impart a beak like look to the face , also the horizontal tusks just don't fit with a Garuda interpretation IMO .

When the Naga is depicted it is usually more obvious :

nechesh · 22nd June 2005, 03:58 PM

Sorry guys, but i don't see the controversy. Even with the beak like structure the first pic appears to be obviously Ganesh, ears and all. As Rick has pointed out, he often holds one trunk in his hand as is depicted here clearly. I cannot see this as being anyone else.

Rick · 22nd June 2005, 04:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nechesh

Sorry guys, but i don't see the controversy. Even with the beak like structure the first pic appears to be obviously Ganesh, ears and all. As Rick has pointed out, he often holds one trunk in his hand as is depicted here clearly. I cannot see this as being anyone else.

Yes , the Elephant is standing in the middle of the room here .
We just have to admit that it is .

fearn · 22nd June 2005, 05:59 PM

Hi Rick and Nechesh,

There's a really fundamental problem: on an elephant, the trunk is the NOSE.

On this figure, there's a perfectly good, human-form nose, right above that beak.

If that's the way you identify elephants, you might identify each kid with a popsicle, or every karaoke singer with a microphone in his mouth, as an elephant. Right? That's the structure we're looking at here. The snakey-looking thing comes out of the mouth, not off the nose.

I can agree that it's a Garuda figure, rather than my earlier guess of Hanuman, because it looks like a human upper face, combined with a bird-beak for a mouth. Also, elephants don't have feathers for "hair" as this figure obviously does.

Another point: that "trunk" has stripes like a snake: possibly a krait or something else.

Fearn

Henk · 22nd June 2005, 08:13 PM

Gentlemen,

This is an elephant, but it isn't Ganesha. Last year I visited a fellow collector who is a member of the studygroup of Tammens. The studygroup still excists and is active. He showed me a balinese keris with the same ukiran figure.
Ganesha I said. Wrong he said. Ganesha holds his trunk in his left hand and this guy holds his trunk in his right hand. He did tell me the name of this guy but unfortunately I forgot it.

Maybe one of the experts can help us out and tell us the name of this guy?

Rick · 22nd June 2005, 09:57 PM

Hi Fearn , respectfully I must disagree with you .

Every one of the depictions illustrated have the nostrils at the base of the trunk . This may be related to how Ganesha got his elephant head .
I have already stated my other observations and opinions so I won't waste bandwidth in restating them .

To each his own .

Henk , I'd love to hear about this other elephant figure you refer to .
Cedric , anymore input from you ?

Anyone else care to chime in here ?

/As Freud said , sometimes a cigar is just a cigar .

< ducks for cover>

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22nd June 2005, 02:51 PM	#1
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	It seems like the same figure as #1 (though he holds a club, rather than a statue of a penis, and does he not display a 3rd eye?). #2 is somewhat more different. Both #1 and #2 have a lip or beak edge (#2 definitely doesn't look like a beak; looks like a mammal) that crosses the trunk, so that the trunk emerges from beneath it. #3 is more realistic/naturalistic, as the trunk comes out of the surface of the face, not from below the lip, thoug the nostrils are still there, as said. One thing to consider, as I've mentioned about Africa, is that these people may have not seen elephants in person? Are we running on an assumption that this is Ganesh because of the elephant feature(s)? Is this confirmed by native/documentary sources? Is it possible it's someone else, even? Are the nonelepnant features artistic conventions perhaps grown of ignorance, like Europeans carving dolphins with nose holes in their nose? Or do the combined features illustrate some particular tale/attribute/etc?

22nd June 2005, 03:26 PM	#2
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,384	Hi Cedric , I think what we're looking at here are two representations (with artistic license) or interpretations of Lord Ganesha . I've got to believe that if it were Garuda eating a snake it would be more obvious as I stated before . The cup at the end of the trunk in the first example is too elephant-like to represent even a part of a snake . One other point , Lord Ganesha is depicted with nostrils above his trunk in many Balinese carvings . I think that this feature tends to impart a beak like look to the face , also the horizontal tusks just don't fit with a Garuda interpretation IMO . When the Naga is depicted it is usually more obvious : Attached Images Last edited by Rick; 22nd June 2005 at 03:37 PM.

22nd June 2005, 03:58 PM	#3
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Sorry guys, but i don't see the controversy. Even with the beak like structure the first pic appears to be obviously Ganesh, ears and all. As Rick has pointed out, he often holds one trunk in his hand as is depicted here clearly. I cannot see this as being anyone else.

22nd June 2005, 05:59 PM	#5
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Hi Rick and Nechesh, There's a really fundamental problem: on an elephant, the trunk is the NOSE. On this figure, there's a perfectly good, human-form nose, right above that beak. If that's the way you identify elephants, you might identify each kid with a popsicle, or every karaoke singer with a microphone in his mouth, as an elephant. Right? That's the structure we're looking at here. The snakey-looking thing comes out of the mouth, not off the nose. I can agree that it's a Garuda figure, rather than my earlier guess of Hanuman, because it looks like a human upper face, combined with a bird-beak for a mouth. Also, elephants don't have feathers for "hair" as this figure obviously does. Another point: that "trunk" has stripes like a snake: possibly a krait or something else. Fearn

22nd June 2005, 08:13 PM	#6
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	Gentlemen, This is an elephant, but it isn't Ganesha. Last year I visited a fellow collector who is a member of the studygroup of Tammens. The studygroup still excists and is active. He showed me a balinese keris with the same ukiran figure. Ganesha I said. Wrong he said. Ganesha holds his trunk in his left hand and this guy holds his trunk in his right hand. He did tell me the name of this guy but unfortunately I forgot it. Maybe one of the experts can help us out and tell us the name of this guy?

22nd June 2005, 09:57 PM	#7
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,384	Hi Fearn , respectfully I must disagree with you . Every one of the depictions illustrated have the nostrils at the base of the trunk . This may be related to how Ganesha got his elephant head . I have already stated my other observations and opinions so I won't waste bandwidth in restating them . To each his own . Henk , I'd love to hear about this other elephant figure you refer to . Cedric , anymore input from you ? Anyone else care to chime in here ? /As Freud said , sometimes a cigar is just a cigar . < ducks for cover>