Crusiform bladed Dagger E Bay

[laEspadaAncha]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

These Hellfire clubs were essentially a parody used in satirical sense toward religion... and the only reason the term pagan was associated with the motif is the green man and dragon are known from those times.

Good note - I would also add to it the 18th C. French origins of the Black Mass, itself a parody of the Catholic Mass. Long before the rise of 19th C. Hermeticism (largely credited with haven given rise to the modern occult movement), there was a long-existing anti-religious backlash practiced by members of the aristocracy, and it would not take a great leap to see how pre-Christian, paleopagan symbolism could serve a parodic purpose in line with these sentiments.

However, I find the explicit representation of the Green Man to be too specific to dismiss any connection to paleopagan beliefs, even if such a representation of such beliefs wasn't meant to embody pagan ritual as much as it might have been meant to serve a purpose in line with the satirical anti-Catholic rituals that existed at the time. Thus, while not an athame per say, I don't think some type of ritualistic function can be completely ruled out, even if said function was rooted in parody as opposed to belief...




ETA: While not an athame per say, given the nature of neopagan / Wiccan rituals and the function an athame serves in those rituals (which in all but the rarest of occasions is purely symbolic), I do not see how the form of the dagger would preclude its use as such, and still maintain the symbology could make this a very attractive acquisition for a well-to-do Wiccan, thus contributing to the realized price.

[David]

Gentlemen, i would hate to see us go off on a wild "green man" chase here much as we did with the "satanic dagger" posted some time back (Esmerelda and Notre Dame). Certainly there is no denying that the origins of the Green Man are a pagan one, but again, let me remind you all just how much the image has been used again and again throughout the British Isles in Christian iconography in churches. There is no parody in purpose for it's use in the architectural elements of some of England's classic churches.
http://www.google.com/images?q=green...w=1417&bih=689
Furthermore the Green Man plays an important role in Arthurian Legend, which, of course, we can find much paganism in, though it clearly was given renewed interest and attention in the Gothic Revival from which most of us seem to think this dagger originates from. Therefore i find nothing to support that this was ever intended to be a "pagan" blade, athame or otherwise.
Fearn is also indeed correct that an athame is specifically a double-edged blade so this clearly does not qualify.
Would a neo-pagan or Wiccan today find this blade of interest. Undoubtably! I know i find it interesting and desirable. But then, i assume that many of you are not Wiccan or neo-pagan and you also find it interesting. So i don't think we can look to a well-off Wiccan as the reason this dagger sold for this price. Besides, though interested in it, no Wiccan would use a triple edged blade as an athame. This blade commanded this price for the same reason it commands our attention here. It is beautiful, unusual and well crafted. And allusions that we make to it having a pagan origin is pure unsupported conjecture. Though i equally have no proof to show it is not the case i believe that a logical examination of the interests of the Gothic Revival times and the art it produced should be enough of an explanation for the themes carved upon this dagger.

[laEspadaAncha]

Originally Posted by David

Would a neo-pagan or Wiccan today find this blade of interest. Undoubtably! I know i find it interesting and desirable. But then, i assume that many of you are not Wiccan or neo-pagan and you also find it interesting.

I guess that's my point... that the symbolism present on the dagger would make it a desirable acquisition for a practicing neopagan or Wiccan.

Of course it will be of interest to a collector or purveyor of antique arms and armor. I simply am stating the addition of other potential interested parties - again, due to the symbolism - may have contributed to the realized price.

[Ron Anderson]

Hi laEspada

It's possible. It would be a shame though. As no practicing Wiccan is likely to appreciate it for its true merits or its immense cultural and historical interest.

I can only hope it was bought by a collector. I am one collector who would have paid that price if it were legal or easy for me to import daggers of this type into Australia.

Ron

[Ron Anderson]

Apologies to Wiccans who also happen to be arms and armour collectors. You of course are exempt from that sweeping generalisation.

[fearn]

I'm not a Wiccan, but I figure that if members of any religion happens to hold a particular type of knife or sword sacred, it's really helpful to help them take proper care of their implements, whether it's a keris, an athame, a kirpan, or a druid grove's ceremonial sickles and swords.

We all like our blades, after all. No reason not to focus on our shared interests.

My 0.00002 cents,

F

[David]

Originally Posted by Ron Anderson

Apologies to Wiccans who also happen to be arms and armour collectors. You of course are exempt from that sweeping generalisation.

Ron, i think you might have underestimated how many practicing Wiccans (or other neo-pagans) have an intensive interest and understanding of particular forms of arms and armour.
Do i have to point out that Gerald Garnder, the father of modern Wicca, was the author of Keris and Other Malay Weapons.
A sweeping generalization indeed...

[Ron Anderson]

Do i have to point out that Gerald Gardner, the father of modern Wicca, was the author of Keris and Other Malay Weapons.


Mmmmm...no, this I did not know. thank you, very interesting. Is this the same Gerald Gardner who published studies on witch hunts in medieval Europe? This just happens to be what my postgraduate history dissertation was about.

Fearn, as for sacred knives and weapons, I couldn't agree more. I am a practicing Tantric Buddhist, which is perhaps more of a contradiction/paradox for an arms collector than being a Wiccan. Many of the Tibetan knives under discussion here are items used in the tantric rituals I practice. Though I don't personally use those knives, or even own any......yet.

If there are Wiccans out there who have Tibetan tantric knives or implements they'd like to swap for potential athames, drop me a line. We need to talk.