Crusiform bladed Dagger E Bay

fearn · 16th November 2010, 08:27 PM

I concur that it's not an athame.

Athames in the Wiccan sense post-date Gerald Gardner and WWII (although in theory, there should be some older ones somewhere). Additionally, they are more likely to have black handles and various magical symbols on them. The blades are also likely to be one or two edged, not cruciform.

As the others have pointed out, the English have had a long fascination with various pagan symbols, so finding a dragon or green man in the decorations isn't a sign of a pagan tool.

Best,

F

laEspadaAncha · 16th November 2010, 09:54 PM

While not an athame per say, I still think - as per the question posted in the OP - the pagan symbolism likely contributed to the high price realized for what is in all likellihood a Victorian reproduction of an earlier form.

Wicca, while a rather contemporary expression of paleopagan ritual, is nonetheless the 2nd-fastest growing religion in the U.S., and Celtic-themed neopaganism has blown up in the UK as well. The presence of pagan symbology on the hilt is IMO a valid potential contributor to the high hammer price.

Ron Anderson · 16th November 2010, 11:58 PM

Hi Archer

What a lovely item.

It may or may not be a Victorian reproduction, but it appears exquisitely chiselled rather than cast.

In fact, this leads me to think it might be earlier. All the gothic Victorian period daggers I've come across were cast. But cut steel is a big investment in labour and time and most copyists don't seem to bother.

If its 19th century I suggest it might be early 19th century. Or perhaps its 18th century. Indeed, in 18th century England they were cutting steel on many small swords - similar sort of work.

I think it's English. The Green Man is usually English, to the best of my knowledge.

Of course, all this is speculative.

If you ever want to get rid of this spurious "Victorian reproduction" do let me know.

Ron Anderson · 17th November 2010, 12:14 AM

Sorry, I just noted that you don't own it.

My mistake.

laEspadaAncha · 17th November 2010, 12:43 AM

Hi Ron,

I guess I should have been a little more careful with my choice of words...

I would associate the symbolism (in particular the Green Man) with the Victorian-era Gothic revival movement and my comment as such was based on this observation. Maybe it is premature or incorrect to refer to it as a "reproduction," though I was under the (mistaken?) impression that by the turn of the 19th C., the use of stilettos had generally fallen out of favor, and associate the blade form with earlier (18th C.) preferences. In doing a little fact checking before posting this response, it appears there are references to the Gothic revival movement having actually begun earlier than I had thought.

Ron Anderson · 17th November 2010, 06:25 AM

hi laEspada

I completely understand. The phrase Victorian reproduction is a bit misleading, but it's a revival piece of sorts.

I will say I do have 19th century daggers with triangular blades, a little like this. It's more typical of French daggers I think.

Ron Anderson · 17th November 2010, 06:32 AM

The more I look at this, the more I like it.

it's a magnificent piece of work. I have an Indo-persian dagger with comparable cut steel etching, circa 1850.

I don't think the price on this is high at all.

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16th November 2010, 08:27 PM	#1
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	I concur that it's not an athame. Athames in the Wiccan sense post-date Gerald Gardner and WWII (although in theory, there should be some older ones somewhere). Additionally, they are more likely to have black handles and various magical symbols on them. The blades are also likely to be one or two edged, not cruciform. As the others have pointed out, the English have had a long fascination with various pagan symbols, so finding a dragon or green man in the decorations isn't a sign of a pagan tool. Best, F

16th November 2010, 09:54 PM	#2
laEspadaAncha Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 608	While not an athame per say, I still think - as per the question posted in the OP - the pagan symbolism likely contributed to the high price realized for what is in all likellihood a Victorian reproduction of an earlier form. Wicca, while a rather contemporary expression of paleopagan ritual, is nonetheless the 2nd-fastest growing religion in the U.S., and Celtic-themed neopaganism has blown up in the UK as well. The presence of pagan symbology on the hilt is IMO a valid potential contributor to the high hammer price.

16th November 2010, 11:58 PM	#3
Ron Anderson Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Sydney Australia Posts: 228	Hi Archer What a lovely item. It may or may not be a Victorian reproduction, but it appears exquisitely chiselled rather than cast. In fact, this leads me to think it might be earlier. All the gothic Victorian period daggers I've come across were cast. But cut steel is a big investment in labour and time and most copyists don't seem to bother. If its 19th century I suggest it might be early 19th century. Or perhaps its 18th century. Indeed, in 18th century England they were cutting steel on many small swords - similar sort of work. I think it's English. The Green Man is usually English, to the best of my knowledge. Of course, all this is speculative. If you ever want to get rid of this spurious "Victorian reproduction" do let me know.

17th November 2010, 12:14 AM	#4
Ron Anderson Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Sydney Australia Posts: 228	Sorry, I just noted that you don't own it. My mistake.

17th November 2010, 12:43 AM	#5
laEspadaAncha Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 608	Hi Ron, I guess I should have been a little more careful with my choice of words... I would associate the symbolism (in particular the Green Man) with the Victorian-era Gothic revival movement and my comment as such was based on this observation. Maybe it is premature or incorrect to refer to it as a "reproduction," though I was under the (mistaken?) impression that by the turn of the 19th C., the use of stilettos had generally fallen out of favor, and associate the blade form with earlier (18th C.) preferences. In doing a little fact checking before posting this response, it appears there are references to the Gothic revival movement having actually begun earlier than I had thought.

17th November 2010, 06:25 AM	#6
Ron Anderson Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Sydney Australia Posts: 228	hi laEspada I completely understand. The phrase Victorian reproduction is a bit misleading, but it's a revival piece of sorts. I will say I do have 19th century daggers with triangular blades, a little like this. It's more typical of French daggers I think.

17th November 2010, 06:32 AM	#7
Ron Anderson Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Sydney Australia Posts: 228	The more I look at this, the more I like it. it's a magnificent piece of work. I have an Indo-persian dagger with comparable cut steel etching, circa 1850. I don't think the price on this is high at all.