Tatar saber for discussion

Perkun · 19th June 2005, 06:29 AM

Rivkin,
I would be very grateful for your help in researching the possible Tamgas.
I attach additional pics.
I don't know if the gold inlay dots on the blade could be tamgas but they are there on both sides of the blade. In one of the plates of tamgas I attached above, there is a tamga in shape of a circle.
I also enhanced the pic. of the spine by tracing over the not so well visible gold inlay there. Please check your references if you could make any sense if it.

Battara · 19th June 2005, 01:41 PM

Perkun, regarding the hilt material, it is actually rayskin (with round noduals) not sharkskin (with triangular noduals).

Nice and complete piece. Thank you for sharing it. Rsword has one, would like to see what he makes of this.

wolviex · 19th June 2005, 04:22 PM

Hi Perkun!

This is really nice example. I wish I had one in my museum, because we have no example of such sabre, amongst many others!

I think that Jim gave you information you needed, anyway my knowledge won't help you much in here, and I just have nothing to add. So please let me one more time admire your sabre -

All the best as ever!

Jim McDougall · 19th June 2005, 04:43 PM

Perkun,
Thank you again for the additional notes on tamgas, and the clearer photos of the markings on the back of the blade. Kirill, thank you for the offer to help with these very obscure, and important markings.

In reviewing material from discussions on the history of tamgas some years back, and pages of material on Caucasian tamgas, the marks on Perkuns sword do not correspond to the illustrated tamgas there, which include quite a few Qipchak examples. The catalog I have was at that point an unpublished manuscript by a well known arms and armour author so I will defer reference unless I can confirm its publication.

The geometric pictograms which are seen in double on the back of the blade somehow do not seem to be tamgas. Unless I am mistaken, doubling or parallel representation seems to occur more on European makers marks or native interpretations of them. However, in Caucasian regions the application in multiples of key markings or symbols does of course occur on blades.
It is known that tamgas were later often incorporated into certain Russian and European heraldic devices with varying degree of accuracy in interpretation. The geometric floral device on the guard and pommel seems to suggest certain heraldic device possibility. Many of the Polish heraldic elements of course seem to derive from possible tamga origins.
Returning to the double 'lazy n' pictogram (well, thats what we'd call it here in Texas!!

, we need more research, but at this point to me it does not seem to represent tamga. Possibly researching tamgas further might reveal such 'double tamgas'.

The gold or brass inlay dot in the blade. It seems that such dots or varying symbolic marks were often placed at strategic locations on blades in India, in the case of this sabre referring to the location at the base of the apparant step in the blade back. It is yet unclear what such symbolism may imply, but the placing does seem strategic, thus some inherent meaning is distinctly possible. Again, it does not seem to be any type of makers mark, but some sort of key symbolic application.

Rick, you rascal!! You have one of these as well ??!!! Any chance we might see it ? It would be great to compare these. I have known of these sabres for a long time from books, but never thought we would have a chance to discuss them from actual examples. Well done guys!!!!!

All the best,
Jim

Jeff D · 19th June 2005, 05:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Perkun,

The gold or brass inlay dot in the blade. It seems that such dots or varying symbolic marks were often placed at strategic locations on blades in India, in the case of this sabre referring to the location at the base of the apparant step in the blade back. It is yet unclear what such symbolism may imply, but the placing does seem strategic, thus some inherent meaning is distinctly possible. Again, it does not seem to be any type of makers mark, but some sort of key symbolic application.

Jim

I hope this is considered relevant, but, I recently read this in "Islamic Swords and Sworgsmlths" by Dr Unsal Yucel on Page 57 while describing Umayyad and Abbasaid Swords
'The majority of these swords have somewhere between one to seven gold-filled holes, generally located on either side of the inscription and sometimes at the tip. These golded filled holes were made by riveting a piece of gold into a hole in the blade. They are usually level with the surface of the blade and approximately 5mm in diameter. It is thought that the purpose of these gold rivets was to bring good luck to the swordman'

All the best.
Jeff

tom hyle · 19th June 2005, 05:31 PM

This type of mark seems to be common, almost worldwide; it is common on medieval European knives (not so much swords), often in silver, copper, etc. I believe in Europe it was usually soldered in place, with peining being optional. Also seen on medieval European knives were grooves filled with contasting metal wire. I have no established meaning, but it's common; seen in China, SE Asia, India, Europe, and in a thread on a spear we just saw, N Africa (?) Some variability from culture to culture as to size, number, placement, affixing method, and even shape, but a widespread interesting phenomenon.
What is the relation between that "step" in the back and the crosshatched part of the spine? Is it hatched out to that? Then what happens?

Perkun · 19th June 2005, 08:21 PM

Thank you everyone for such wonderful insightful responses.
Jeff, applying KISS method

(which I really like) is the best policy and in this light your observation and interpretation seems most plausable to me.
As a matter of fact it was exactly in this fashion ("a gold filled hole") that this mark was described to me by my friend who personally examined the saber.
Tom,
Not yet having the chance to examine the sword in person I cannot answer if the cross hatching on the spine is a form of decoration or a sign of mechanical abuse. The "step" (or a double step as it is repeated at the point of the blade forming a "cut out" in the middle of it) is a common feature on Polish sabers and the book by Jacek Gutkowski cited above shows a couple of examples of Tatar sabers with this feature.
As to the spine markings if we rule out tamgas then a possibility of them being an Armenian maker's marks should be examined, perhaps it represents the letter "h".

RSWORD · 19th June 2005, 09:19 PM

A georgeous sword that you have posted and quite rare indeed. I cannot add too much to the discussion but do have an example that Jose has kindly referred to and will be glad to post pictures for comparison purposes and hopefully additional education.

In regards to dating, Gutowski in his book "Bron' I Uzbrojenie Tatarow" makes an argument that one can date these sabers by the crossguard size. Later examples seem to show the Caucasian influences and have become very short compared to earlier examples. Generally, examples with the short crossguards can be dated to the late 17th to turn of 18th century. It will be interesting on Perkuns example once he has it in hand to find out if the blade is an imported. Most often, blades were imported and the profile of Perkuns example is that of Shamshir form and may be an imported Persian or Ottoman example and could be watered. My example has an archetypal blade form and really shows how the early Eurasian blade profiles lasted well into the 17th century.

I agree with Jim that neither mark on your sword is a Tamga sign. The "S" shape on the spine is very similar to marks on my sword blade. Mine are found at the top of the blade on both sides just below the spine. My example has 21 of these marks down each side of the blade. If one looks closely, in example 68 in Gutowski's book, that blade has a similar "S" shape marking along the top of the blade near the spine. I believe all the crosshatching on the spine of your blade contained many of these "S" shape marks but it looks as though many have worn away over the years. I do not know what these marks could represent as the example in the book looks to be a Persian imported blade, yours is undetermined as of yet, and my example seems to be of Lvov manufacture.

Gutowski mentions as Jim referenced that only one Tatar sword is known with a Tatar Tamga mark and in that example it is inlaid on the scabbard. My example has the Tamga mark done in silver inlayed on the blade and appears to be the same mark as the example referenced by Jim which is currently in the Polish army musuem. I would be most interested if any of Rivkins resources can identify the family or clan of this particular mark.

A fascinating discussion and I hope to learn more about Tamga marks on my sword and I look forward to Perkun getting his example in hand to learn more about his blade.

Rascalfully yours,

Rick

M.carter · 20th June 2005, 06:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff D

I hope this is considered relevant, but, I recently read this in "Islamic Swords and Sworgsmlths" by Dr Unsal Yucel on Page 57 while describing Umayyad and Abbasaid Swords
'The majority of these swords have somewhere between one to seven gold-filled holes, generally located on either side of the inscription and sometimes at the tip. These golded filled holes were made by riveting a piece of gold into a hole in the blade. They are usually level with the surface of the blade and approximately 5mm in diameter. It is thought that the purpose of these gold rivets was to bring good luck to the swordman'

All the best.
Jeff

Hey, thats an interesting note Jeff, I too noticed this thing with the gold rivets. Could there or is there a relation between those 8th century swords, and this saber (in relation with the gold spot)?

Jeff D · 20th June 2005, 06:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M.carter

Hey, thats an interesting note Jeff, I too noticed this thing with the gold rivets. Could there or is there a relation between those 8th century swords, and this saber (in relation with the gold spot)?

Hi Mike,

I actually bought this book because of your recommendation in a past thread. I am enjoying it very much!!! Thank you. We will see as these side discussions are often very illuminating.

All the Best,
Jeff

Jeff D · 21st June 2005, 01:15 AM

Hi All,

I didn't want to say anything until I was sure I could find this one in storage. Tatar saber with Persian blade.

Enjoy.
Jeff

19th June 2005, 06:29 AM	#1
Perkun Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 45	Rivkin, I would be very grateful for your help in researching the possible Tamgas. I attach additional pics. I don't know if the gold inlay dots on the blade could be tamgas but they are there on both sides of the blade. In one of the plates of tamgas I attached above, there is a tamga in shape of a circle. I also enhanced the pic. of the spine by tracing over the not so well visible gold inlay there. Please check your references if you could make any sense if it. Attached Images Last edited by Perkun; 19th June 2005 at 08:13 AM.

19th June 2005, 04:43 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,193	Perkun, Thank you again for the additional notes on tamgas, and the clearer photos of the markings on the back of the blade. Kirill, thank you for the offer to help with these very obscure, and important markings. In reviewing material from discussions on the history of tamgas some years back, and pages of material on Caucasian tamgas, the marks on Perkuns sword do not correspond to the illustrated tamgas there, which include quite a few Qipchak examples. The catalog I have was at that point an unpublished manuscript by a well known arms and armour author so I will defer reference unless I can confirm its publication. The geometric pictograms which are seen in double on the back of the blade somehow do not seem to be tamgas. Unless I am mistaken, doubling or parallel representation seems to occur more on European makers marks or native interpretations of them. However, in Caucasian regions the application in multiples of key markings or symbols does of course occur on blades. It is known that tamgas were later often incorporated into certain Russian and European heraldic devices with varying degree of accuracy in interpretation. The geometric floral device on the guard and pommel seems to suggest certain heraldic device possibility. Many of the Polish heraldic elements of course seem to derive from possible tamga origins. Returning to the double 'lazy n' pictogram (well, thats what we'd call it here in Texas!!, we need more research, but at this point to me it does not seem to represent tamga. Possibly researching tamgas further might reveal such 'double tamgas'. The gold or brass inlay dot in the blade. It seems that such dots or varying symbolic marks were often placed at strategic locations on blades in India, in the case of this sabre referring to the location at the base of the apparant step in the blade back. It is yet unclear what such symbolism may imply, but the placing does seem strategic, thus some inherent meaning is distinctly possible. Again, it does not seem to be any type of makers mark, but some sort of key symbolic application. Rick, you rascal!! You have one of these as well ??!!! Any chance we might see it ? It would be great to compare these. I have known of these sabres for a long time from books, but never thought we would have a chance to discuss them from actual examples. Well done guys!!!!! All the best, Jim Last edited by Jim McDougall; 19th June 2005 at 04:56 PM.

19th June 2005, 09:19 PM	#8
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,086	A georgeous sword that you have posted and quite rare indeed. I cannot add too much to the discussion but do have an example that Jose has kindly referred to and will be glad to post pictures for comparison purposes and hopefully additional education. In regards to dating, Gutowski in his book "Bron' I Uzbrojenie Tatarow" makes an argument that one can date these sabers by the crossguard size. Later examples seem to show the Caucasian influences and have become very short compared to earlier examples. Generally, examples with the short crossguards can be dated to the late 17th to turn of 18th century. It will be interesting on Perkuns example once he has it in hand to find out if the blade is an imported. Most often, blades were imported and the profile of Perkuns example is that of Shamshir form and may be an imported Persian or Ottoman example and could be watered. My example has an archetypal blade form and really shows how the early Eurasian blade profiles lasted well into the 17th century. I agree with Jim that neither mark on your sword is a Tamga sign. The "S" shape on the spine is very similar to marks on my sword blade. Mine are found at the top of the blade on both sides just below the spine. My example has 21 of these marks down each side of the blade. If one looks closely, in example 68 in Gutowski's book, that blade has a similar "S" shape marking along the top of the blade near the spine. I believe all the crosshatching on the spine of your blade contained many of these "S" shape marks but it looks as though many have worn away over the years. I do not know what these marks could represent as the example in the book looks to be a Persian imported blade, yours is undetermined as of yet, and my example seems to be of Lvov manufacture. Gutowski mentions as Jim referenced that only one Tatar sword is known with a Tatar Tamga mark and in that example it is inlaid on the scabbard. My example has the Tamga mark done in silver inlayed on the blade and appears to be the same mark as the example referenced by Jim which is currently in the Polish army musuem. I would be most interested if any of Rivkins resources can identify the family or clan of this particular mark. A fascinating discussion and I hope to learn more about Tamga marks on my sword and I look forward to Perkun getting his example in hand to learn more about his blade. Rascalfully yours, Rick Attached Images

21st June 2005, 01:15 AM	#11
Jeff D Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: B.C. Canada Posts: 473	Hi All, I didn't want to say anything until I was sure I could find this one in storage. Tatar saber with Persian blade. Enjoy. Jeff Attached Images

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19th June 2005, 01:41 PM	#2
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,272	Perkun, regarding the hilt material, it is actually rayskin (with round noduals) not sharkskin (with triangular noduals). Nice and complete piece. Thank you for sharing it. Rsword has one, would like to see what he makes of this.

19th June 2005, 04:22 PM	#3
wolviex Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Poland, Krakow Posts: 418	Hi Perkun! This is really nice example. I wish I had one in my museum, because we have no example of such sabre, amongst many others! I think that Jim gave you information you needed, anyway my knowledge won't help you much in here, and I just have nothing to add. So please let me one more time admire your sabre - All the best as ever!

19th June 2005, 05:31 PM	#6
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	This type of mark seems to be common, almost worldwide; it is common on medieval European knives (not so much swords), often in silver, copper, etc. I believe in Europe it was usually soldered in place, with peining being optional. Also seen on medieval European knives were grooves filled with contasting metal wire. I have no established meaning, but it's common; seen in China, SE Asia, India, Europe, and in a thread on a spear we just saw, N Africa (?) Some variability from culture to culture as to size, number, placement, affixing method, and even shape, but a widespread interesting phenomenon. What is the relation between that "step" in the back and the crosshatched part of the spine? Is it hatched out to that? Then what happens?

19th June 2005, 08:21 PM	#7
Perkun Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 45	Thank you everyone for such wonderful insightful responses. Jeff, applying KISS method (which I really like) is the best policy and in this light your observation and interpretation seems most plausable to me. As a matter of fact it was exactly in this fashion ("a gold filled hole") that this mark was described to me by my friend who personally examined the saber. Tom, Not yet having the chance to examine the sword in person I cannot answer if the cross hatching on the spine is a form of decoration or a sign of mechanical abuse. The "step" (or a double step as it is repeated at the point of the blade forming a "cut out" in the middle of it) is a common feature on Polish sabers and the book by Jacek Gutkowski cited above shows a couple of examples of Tatar sabers with this feature. As to the spine markings if we rule out tamgas then a possibility of them being an Armenian maker's marks should be examined, perhaps it represents the letter "h".