Tatar saber for discussion

Perkun · 19th June 2005, 01:50 AM

Jim,
I got it in Poland. The seller stated it came out of an old collection being sold off by the widow of the collector. I will continue my efforts to get more info on the previous owner as the continuity of the provenance is important to me.

You are right, very little has been written about them. There is another recent very good Polish publication (in Polish and English) "Bron i Uzbrojenie Tatarow" (Tatar Arms and Armour) , (I will look up the publisher and author for you later).
I still cannot beleive my luck.
Because of the shape of the blade and the nature of the decoration I suspect it is of Lwow manufacture, but I don't know enough to make it a definite identification.

Perkun · 19th June 2005, 02:00 AM

Ham,
There are some markings on the spine of the blade (in gold, visible although not well on one of the attached photos). I have not yet examined the saber in person so I don't know if they are owner's Tatar tamgas or maker's marks.

Perkun · 19th June 2005, 02:20 AM

I attach images of Tamgas of Golden Horde and Lithuanian Tatars

Jim McDougall · 19th June 2005, 03:27 AM

Perkun,
Thank you for noting the Polish title, I had forgotten about that particular resource, a very good one! It is by Jacek Gutowski and published by Res Publica Multiethnica , Warsaw , 1997, ISBN 83-909001-0-6 ( for the benefit of those who would like to find this, it is beautifully illustrated and the text is both in Polish and English).
In this book, concerning tamgas it notes "...only one example of a blade with a Tartar ownership mark is known , this sabre with a Tartar tamga sign impressed in its scabbard isn the Polish Army Museum ". In this book it is illustration #76, and as noted, with the reduced hilt guard.

The tamga reference you have provided the plates from, which work is it?
I only have some data on these from research done over 8 years ago, and was advised of a Russian title, but this is the only one I have heard of that specifically addresses these most interesting markings.

You truly are incredibly lucky to have found this weapon! and it was very kind of you to share it here. Possibly the marks can give us more clues.

All the best,
Jim

Conogre · 19th June 2005, 03:48 AM

A wonderful find.....congratulations!
I often find it interesting that you have western/European swords and ethnographic swords, yet when the specifics become known, the line blurs and so many move from the former to the latter.
Wonderful research and information to go with the sword itself, so well done on all counts, and the reason I keep coming back.
Sometimes this IS the best place for information that's little known elsewhere.
Mike

Perkun · 19th June 2005, 03:54 AM

Jim,
I found the Tamgas on the net:
www.gaumina.lt/totoriai/english/tradicijos_info3.html

The page cites a 1930's Polish publication by Stanislaw Dziadulewicz entiteled "The Collection of Emblems of Polish Tatar Families";
I assume the plates are form this particular work.

I beleive that with this purchase I have opened up a whole new fixation for myself, now I feel I will be hunting down pieces of Tatar armor and equippment...

Rivkin · 19th June 2005, 05:02 AM

I know of about a dozen of books/monographies about tamgas - tatar, circassian and ancient iranian (scythian, sarmat etc.) tamgas, however they are all in russian or tataric. However if I'm given a tamga I can try to attribute it to family or more likely a tribe.

Perkun · 19th June 2005, 07:29 AM

Rivkin,
I would be very grateful for your help in researching the possible Tamgas.
I attach additional pics.
I don't know if the gold inlay dots on the blade could be tamgas but they are there on both sides of the blade. In one of the plates of tamgas I attached above, there is a tamga in shape of a circle.
I also enhanced the pic. of the spine by tracing over the not so well visible gold inlay there. Please check your references if you could make any sense if it.

19th June 2005, 02:20 AM	#3
Perkun Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 45	I attach images of Tamgas of Golden Horde and Lithuanian Tatars Attached Images

19th June 2005, 03:54 AM	#6
Perkun Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 45	Jim, I found the Tamgas on the net: www.gaumina.lt/totoriai/english/tradicijos_info3.html The page cites a 1930's Polish publication by Stanislaw Dziadulewicz entiteled "The Collection of Emblems of Polish Tatar Families"; I assume the plates are form this particular work. I beleive that with this purchase I have opened up a whole new fixation for myself, now I feel I will be hunting down pieces of Tatar armor and equippment... Last edited by Perkun; 19th June 2005 at 04:05 AM.

19th June 2005, 07:29 AM	#8
Perkun Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 45	Rivkin, I would be very grateful for your help in researching the possible Tamgas. I attach additional pics. I don't know if the gold inlay dots on the blade could be tamgas but they are there on both sides of the blade. In one of the plates of tamgas I attached above, there is a tamga in shape of a circle. I also enhanced the pic. of the spine by tracing over the not so well visible gold inlay there. Please check your references if you could make any sense if it. Attached Images Last edited by Perkun; 19th June 2005 at 09:13 AM.

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19th June 2005, 01:50 AM	#1
Perkun Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 45	Jim, I got it in Poland. The seller stated it came out of an old collection being sold off by the widow of the collector. I will continue my efforts to get more info on the previous owner as the continuity of the provenance is important to me. You are right, very little has been written about them. There is another recent very good Polish publication (in Polish and English) "Bron i Uzbrojenie Tatarow" (Tatar Arms and Armour) , (I will look up the publisher and author for you later). I still cannot beleive my luck. Because of the shape of the blade and the nature of the decoration I suspect it is of Lwow manufacture, but I don't know enough to make it a definite identification.

19th June 2005, 02:00 AM	#2
Perkun Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 45	Ham, There are some markings on the spine of the blade (in gold, visible although not well on one of the attached photos). I have not yet examined the saber in person so I don't know if they are owner's Tatar tamgas or maker's marks.

19th June 2005, 03:27 AM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,670	Perkun, Thank you for noting the Polish title, I had forgotten about that particular resource, a very good one! It is by Jacek Gutowski and published by Res Publica Multiethnica , Warsaw , 1997, ISBN 83-909001-0-6 ( for the benefit of those who would like to find this, it is beautifully illustrated and the text is both in Polish and English). In this book, concerning tamgas it notes "...only one example of a blade with a Tartar ownership mark is known , this sabre with a Tartar tamga sign impressed in its scabbard isn the Polish Army Museum ". In this book it is illustration #76, and as noted, with the reduced hilt guard. The tamga reference you have provided the plates from, which work is it? I only have some data on these from research done over 8 years ago, and was advised of a Russian title, but this is the only one I have heard of that specifically addresses these most interesting markings. You truly are incredibly lucky to have found this weapon! and it was very kind of you to share it here. Possibly the marks can give us more clues. All the best, Jim

19th June 2005, 03:48 AM	#5
Conogre Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Clearwater, Florida Posts: 371	A wonderful find.....congratulations! I often find it interesting that you have western/European swords and ethnographic swords, yet when the specifics become known, the line blurs and so many move from the former to the latter. Wonderful research and information to go with the sword itself, so well done on all counts, and the reason I keep coming back. Sometimes this IS the best place for information that's little known elsewhere. Mike

19th June 2005, 05:02 AM	#7
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	I know of about a dozen of books/monographies about tamgas - tatar, circassian and ancient iranian (scythian, sarmat etc.) tamgas, however they are all in russian or tataric. However if I'm given a tamga I can try to attribute it to family or more likely a tribe.