Silver inlayed 19thC Mexican Spur with Stars/Stripes?

[Berkley]

Originally Posted by Atlantia

hopefully others will show their spurs too, as this is an interesting study.

I agree that this is a most interesting study. Here is my lonely contribution to the discussion, a typical Mexican working spur with silver accents, nearly in relic condition I fear, and of no great distinction -

While attempting to learn something on the subject, I discovered an interesting old book online, The History of the Spur by Charles de Lacy: http://www.archive.org/stream/histor...ge/n7/mode/2up
I gather from an afternoon perusing the web that the espuela grande with a large multi-tined sunburst rowel is originally a Spanish design, in turn derived from Northern European versions such as this Cavalier spur shown in de Lacy:

Since they are Spanish in origin, the sunburst-rowelled spurs appear to be found throughout Mexico and South America. A brief search of the web produces these specimens, described (clockwise from top left) as South American, Argentine, and Chilean.

If identification of the place of origin of any particular piece is the goal, regional variations in decorative patterns may be more important than the design of the spur.
Alas, I am unlikely to ever be fortunate enough to possess even one of these beautiful espuelas.

[Atlantia]

Big welcome to the thread Berkley.

Great research, and a nice 'working' Spur BTW! (In fact it seems rather fancy for just a working spur!)
So it looks as though my example could be either from Mexico or further south?
I wonder how unusual these elaborate examples are?

[Nagawarrior]

Your spur is from Chili.
I own Tim's spurs now.
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?p=62985
I did research and contacted Abel A. Domenech.
Mr. Domenech says definitely Chilean.
Search Chilean spurs and you will find many examples.
Hope this helps.
Love my spurs. They are awesome and go well with my Gaucho display.
Best,
Stephen*

P.S. They are called something like cry babies or something like that because of the sound they make when walking. I forget the spanish word for it.

P.S.S. Here is his response;
"Dear Stephen:
Thank you so much for your kind message and comments about my article.
You got a very nice pair of spurs indeed!.
This type is known here as "lloronas" (something like "criers" or "which make cry") may be due to the metallic sound they do when walking while wearing them associated with the sound of a human crying.
Actually, this type of big roundel spiked spurs were much popular in Chile, our neighbour Country, just crossing the cordillera of Andes (mountain chain).
I´m not an speciallist of spurs, but I bet these spurs of yours, are of Chilean make, and most probably of XIX C.
They usually have silver inclussions on the "frame", which I can´t see well in your picture.
Also, they are sometimes marked with the name of the silversmith who made them, and this detail is dessirable in any piece of silverware or gaucho item.
Hope this little information is of interest to you, and I wish you enjoy very much these nice spurs.
Thank you again, and receive my cordial regards,"

Abel D.

[Gonzalo G]

With all due respect to my friend Abel, he does not know the Mexican spurs. Atlantia has already demonstrated with examples that this kind of spurs also come from Mexico. Just see the photos. In any case, this style, as established, come also from Mexico. But neverthless, everybody can be mistaken in this specific case, and only a close examination or study can bring definite results, as this subject is not a matter of faith. Maybe a test on the silver can determinate the Mexican or South American origin. I also would like to know a definitive scientific ID, different from the opinions, mine included.
Regards

Gonzalo

[laEspadaAncha]

FWIW, I sent the photos of Gene's spur to noted spur expert and author Kurt House, to whom I had previously reached out to request assistance identifying a pair of spurs I had acquired at an auction earlier this year. He has authored and published several books on spurs and has forgotten more about spurs than most of us will ever know... Once again, he was kind enough to reply:

"Chris: Rarely can I state anything with 100% confidence, but this Chilean spur is an exception. No doubt about it, I can prove it, which is rare.

Kurt House"


Seems pretty definitive to me.

[Gonzalo G]

Not to me. It looks like another opinion based on the most common places, and I don´t accept opninions merely based on a principle of authority. On the other side, based on what I just saw, I don´t have much confidence about the knowledge from non-Latin American aficionados about Latin American items (even about Spanish items, if not comming from Spanish connoisseurs). Specially when I have direct knowledge about this items and I don´t need to base my opinions on a third party. Besides, for what I see Mr. House is not specialized in antique Mexican or Latin American spurs, but in USA´s cowboys. I can argument more on this subject but I don´t see any reason to continue this discussion under any circumstances, since all points of view were exposed, I already proposed a scientific method to clear this point, and I don´t have a personal interest insisting on this point.

The silver from South America can be metallographically distinguished from the Mexican.

Bye

[laEspadaAncha]

Originally Posted by Gonzalo G

On the other side, based on what I just saw, I don´t have much confidence about the knowledge from non-Latin American aficionados about Latin American items (even about Spanish items, if not comming from Spanish connoisseurs).

To suggest an individual's ethnic identity is somehow a necessary or sufficient condition to becoming an expert in subjects pertaining to their ethnicity is simply ludicrous. Just because one's personal connection to a subject provides a different perspective, and in some cases may - and I stress may - lend added value to understanding a subject (e.g., the ethnographic studies of some pueblo cultures) does not logically equate to it being a valid nor "most" valid perspective.

I guess in your opinion, the scientific method you cite in the same paragraph is only valid when the tester is of the same ethnographic origin as the data which he or she tests?

You could choose to show the respect and courtesy of writing one of the foremost experts in the field to personally inquire into the depth of his knowledge and experience with spurs of Meso American or South American origin, and then base your opinion on data. Or you could choose to simply dismiss the certitude of someone who has probably forgotten more about spurs than you and I will ever know based on nothing other than your - and his - ethnic identity. Either way, it is your prerogative.

In all fairness to Kurt House, in addition to having written books - that's books, as in plural - on the subject, he has been collecting spurs for 40 years and for nearly ten years has been the Director of the National Bit, Spur, and Saddle Collectors Association (notice it is not the "National Bit, American Spur, and Saddle Collectors Association." To assume his expertise is limited to items only originating north of the Rio Grande is awfully presumptive).

FWIW, when I asked him why he was so certain, he told me that in addition to the data he has collected over nearly a half century of research, he has encountered this same pattern of spur acquired from indigenous flea markets in Chile, and went on to say, and I quote, "the only way that spur can be thought to be Mexican is if it passed through Mexico on its way from Chile."