New Kilij

ariel · 18th June 2005, 06:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ham

This is a variant of 19th century Persian export blade. There is an excellent article by Oliver Pinchot which discusses them in detail, however it is hard to come by.
As far as stabilizing the guard, we have used modelling clay as an expedient and reversible fixitive for many years now with positive results.

Sincerely,

Ham

Good idea. How strong are they? Do they come in black color?
Any more "permanent" fixative?

ariel · 18th June 2005, 06:38 PM

Some time ago Artzi posted on SFI a series of pics showing restoration of a Kilij handle
http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/001866.html

He used some kind of adhesive to attach the scales; what was it? Can the same material be used for the crossguard?

tom hyle · 18th June 2005, 07:30 PM

SFI? That link's to the Vikingsword forum? Pics are gone, and was there more text about the process? Seems to be some missing information in trying to establish a logical sequence to the posts; were the pictures that good, that textual conclusions came from them? Or was there an SFI link at one time or something? Didn't he use pitch as the adhesive for the scales/to level the area between the tang bands? I think he used some sort of epoxy to fill a void or warped hollow, but not as the actual adhesive; am I misremembering?
As to loose scales, I can only testify that they are common, and point out that anyone who hasn't seen them before, has seen some now. It is axiomatic in woodworking that the warpage of wood is an unstoppable force and will ultimately overcome any adhesive, when the two are opposed (one tries to avoid opposing them for this reason; a positive mechanical joint is often preferred, but even so will often sucumb.....). Thus, though the power of the adhesive (and particularly perhaps its elasticity in the case of pitch; but I've seen old pitch that was still holding, and other that had failed) may be of some influence, and the pins, if tight and rivetted will also restrain movement in varying degree (with their hardness, thickness, etc.), the main reason some old scales are going to be tight with an even, nonopen joint, tight rivets, uncracked, etc. is that either due to planning/knowledge, circumstances, sealing, or the nature of the material (most extreme example; stone, including metal), they have not tried very hard to warp. If they had, no adhesive is known to hold them (and I for one have seen numbers of scales that had come unadhered with warpage), and as to the pins, the warping wood sometimes tends to bend them (yes, that's right; if they are thin/soft) and/or crack around them when it warps much. Another common type of warpage, that often leaves a handle tight or tolerably tight, is (often wavy) warpage that makes a space between scale and tang. If the common rivetted joint between tang and pommel-plate is loose, or that of the tang bands, you'd be in worse trouble, of course.

Yannis · 19th June 2005, 12:04 AM

I am really sorry that I insist in my first opinion. The blade is second half of 19th century. The fullers are characteristic of this production line. The older kilij fullers are more wide and less deep.

ham · 19th June 2005, 12:13 AM

Yannis,

Certainly true in the case of Ottoman blades, this one is Persian however.
Incidentally, do you see many Qajar trade blades in Ottoman mounts in Greece? They seem to have been a great deal more popular among the Arab provinces than in the Balkans and Aegean.

Sincerely,

Ham

M.carter · 19th June 2005, 01:54 AM

Well, I can tell you that thread in which Artzi restored the Kilij hilt, that would too hard and very dangerous to do (somehow, he did it!). You will need (as I remember) epoxy putty (readily available, easy to use) and a welding machine (or someone who has one). If you want to re-tighten the grip scales, first you must cut the rivets and pull the entire hilt apart (2 grip scales, brass/silver strap, crossguard.), clean the tang. Weld the brass/ silver strap back on. Then stick the two slabs back onto the tang (be careful not to fill in the holes in the tang). Then add two new rivets. Then fix the crossguard with epoxy putty too.

I find epoxy putty as a replacement medium acceptable, one, it is much more harder and better than cutlers resin, two, it is much more easier to "obtain" and use.

M.carter · 19th June 2005, 01:57 AM

Clay is too brittle, and your hilt would start to loosen up once you swing the sword.

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version Email this Page	Search this Thread: Advanced Search
Display Modes
Switch to Linear Mode Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode

18th June 2005, 06:38 PM	#2
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Some time ago Artzi posted on SFI a series of pics showing restoration of a Kilij handle http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/001866.html He used some kind of adhesive to attach the scales; what was it? Can the same material be used for the crossguard?

18th June 2005, 07:30 PM	#3
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	SFI? That link's to the Vikingsword forum? Pics are gone, and was there more text about the process? Seems to be some missing information in trying to establish a logical sequence to the posts; were the pictures that good, that textual conclusions came from them? Or was there an SFI link at one time or something? Didn't he use pitch as the adhesive for the scales/to level the area between the tang bands? I think he used some sort of epoxy to fill a void or warped hollow, but not as the actual adhesive; am I misremembering? As to loose scales, I can only testify that they are common, and point out that anyone who hasn't seen them before, has seen some now. It is axiomatic in woodworking that the warpage of wood is an unstoppable force and will ultimately overcome any adhesive, when the two are opposed (one tries to avoid opposing them for this reason; a positive mechanical joint is often preferred, but even so will often sucumb.....). Thus, though the power of the adhesive (and particularly perhaps its elasticity in the case of pitch; but I've seen old pitch that was still holding, and other that had failed) may be of some influence, and the pins, if tight and rivetted will also restrain movement in varying degree (with their hardness, thickness, etc.), the main reason some old scales are going to be tight with an even, nonopen joint, tight rivets, uncracked, etc. is that either due to planning/knowledge, circumstances, sealing, or the nature of the material (most extreme example; stone, including metal), they have not tried very hard to warp. If they had, no adhesive is known to hold them (and I for one have seen numbers of scales that had come unadhered with warpage), and as to the pins, the warping wood sometimes tends to bend them (yes, that's right; if they are thin/soft) and/or crack around them when it warps much. Another common type of warpage, that often leaves a handle tight or tolerably tight, is (often wavy) warpage that makes a space between scale and tang. If the common rivetted joint between tang and pommel-plate is loose, or that of the tang bands, you'd be in worse trouble, of course.

19th June 2005, 12:04 AM	#4
Yannis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Athens Greece Posts: 479	I am really sorry that I insist in my first opinion. The blade is second half of 19th century. The fullers are characteristic of this production line. The older kilij fullers are more wide and less deep.

19th June 2005, 12:13 AM	#5
ham Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 190	Yannis, Certainly true in the case of Ottoman blades, this one is Persian however. Incidentally, do you see many Qajar trade blades in Ottoman mounts in Greece? They seem to have been a great deal more popular among the Arab provinces than in the Balkans and Aegean. Sincerely, Ham

19th June 2005, 01:54 AM	#6
M.carter Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 176	Well, I can tell you that thread in which Artzi restored the Kilij hilt, that would too hard and very dangerous to do (somehow, he did it!). You will need (as I remember) epoxy putty (readily available, easy to use) and a welding machine (or someone who has one). If you want to re-tighten the grip scales, first you must cut the rivets and pull the entire hilt apart (2 grip scales, brass/silver strap, crossguard.), clean the tang. Weld the brass/ silver strap back on. Then stick the two slabs back onto the tang (be careful not to fill in the holes in the tang). Then add two new rivets. Then fix the crossguard with epoxy putty too. I find epoxy putty as a replacement medium acceptable, one, it is much more harder and better than cutlers resin, two, it is much more easier to "obtain" and use.

19th June 2005, 01:57 AM	#7
M.carter Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 176	Clay is too brittle, and your hilt would start to loosen up once you swing the sword.