Help with Identification please

[cedric Le Dauphin]

Hi everyone

Thanks for the answers

Alan I would suggest first java before second half of the 19th century.

regards

[A. G. Maisey]

Cedric, in his "History of Java", Raffles wrote something to the effect that at the time he was there the place of the keris in Javanese society was similar to the place of the small sword in European society, 50 years earlier. Raffles came to Jawa in 1811 or 1812.

So, if we're talking 50 years earlier, we're talking around 1750, we need to remember that the Court of Mataram moved from Kartasura to Surakarta in 1745. The Kartasura era was a troubled one, the period between the death of Sultan Agung and the establishment of Karatsura was continual turmoil, Sultan Agung's reign was characterised by war and expansion, Mataram itself was established in a fashion not dissimilar to a Mafia takeover, prior to Mataram we had Pajang which again was not really rooted in peaceful legitimacy, before Pajang , Demak which replaced Majapahit following the internal tensions that had weakened the power of this once mighty kingdom. As we all know, Demak was Islamic, and as a part of Islam's gentle insinuation into Javanese society, the keris was adopted as Islam's own.

To attempt to understand the original place of the keris in Javanese society, we need to go back to at least Majapahit, and we need to try to understand the place of the keris as a whole within that society, before we can begin to understand the place of a component part of that keris.

If we consider the hilt of the keris in Islamic Jawa, I would suggest that the hilt has no role other than to complete the dress.

Consider:- the maker of a keris blade can an mpu, in which case he is a cultural descendant of the same common ancestor as the rulers of Jawa, and he has the power to create a symbolically and magically charged cultural artifact; if he is not an mpu, he is at least a pande, or a craftsman.

On the other hand, the maker of a hilt is a tukang, "tukang jejeran", in other words a tradesman. Tradesmen are not engaged in the production of magically, or symbolically charged artifacts, they simply do a job for money.

To find a time in Jawa when the role of the hilt of a keris can be interpreted in terms other than utilitarian, we need to go back a very long way in time, and we need to gain an understanding not only of Javanese society at that time, but of the underlying values of societies within Maritime South East Asia.

Cedric, I could waffle on and provide several thousand words of ideas, hypotheses and unsupported rumours, but I cannot provide a single, solid supportable comment in answer to what I understand the core intent of your question to be. If you do indeed have an intense interest in this question, you may come to some understanding of the matter if you are prepared to immerse yourself in a study of the society of early Jawa, and of other more primitive societies in Maritime SE Asia in more recent times.

I cannot give you the answer you seek.

[Sajen]

In general this will be correct but what is with the so called Gana hilts? I have seen some which are attributed to Java.

In case to Bugis Kerdas hilts I want to remember to this thread: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=10454

Regards,

Detlef

[A. G. Maisey]

Detlef, Cedric asked for clarification of the role of the hilt in respect of Javanese keris, and he nominated the period prior to +/-1850.

Now you ask "--- what is with ---Gana hilts---?"

Why limit the question to only this hilt style?

We can find many hilt forms in the Javanese keris that are continuations of pre-Islamic Javanese traditions, and we can hypothesize in respect of these hilt forms until the cows come home, but to provide a definitive, supportable response to a clear, concise question is a different matter altogether.

If the point of this exercise is to be a parade of all the hypotheses that float around Javanese hilt forms, then let us declare the party open.

If the point of the exercise is to be to provide a solid, supportable response to a very worthwhile question, then perhaps somebody amongst us can provide the answers that I cannot.

[Sajen]

If we consider the hilt of the keris in Islamic Jawa, I would suggest that the hilt has no role other than to complete the dress.

Maybe I have understand something wrong ( please have in mind that english isn't my native language) but in my understanding (what I have learned, read and have been told) have a Gana hilt a other role than only to complete the dress. But I might be wrong by this.

[A. G. Maisey]

Detlef, you have possibly heard and read the same, or similar things to those that I have heard and read. However, I have the character defect that I do not believe everything I read or am told. I want a lot more than somebody's personal, or group, belief that something is so. Most particularly where keris beliefs come into play, I want a lot more than 20th. century Javanese belief, or imaginative hypotheses constructed to suit a personal hobby horse.

All the ideas and stories are interesting, and in the right context can provide the foundations for congenial conversation. But after the conversation is finished, nothing has been substantiated, and all the big questions are still left standing with no supported answers.

There are at least two ways that we can approach the subject that Cedric has raised:- we can pull out all our interesting stories and ideas, or we can attempt to provide solid, supported answers. I've probably heard most of the interesting stories, so these don't hold much interest for me, but I would really appreciate some solid supportable answers, because in spite of a great deal of searching, I have yet to find these answers.

[Sajen]

Understand and taken!

[David]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Detlef, you have possibly heard and read the same, or similar things to those that I have heard and read. However, I have the character defect that I do not believe everything I read or am told. I want a lot more than somebody's personal, or group, belief that something is so. Most particularly where keris beliefs come into play, I want a lot more than 20th. century Javanese belief, or imaginative hypotheses constructed to suit a personal hobby horse.

All the ideas and stories are interesting, and in the right context can provide the foundations for congenial conversation. But after the conversation is finished, nothing has been substantiated, and all the big questions are still left standing with no supported answers.

There are at least two ways that we can approach the subject that Cedric has raised:- we can pull out all our interesting stories and ideas, or we can attempt to provide solid, supported answers. I've probably heard most of the interesting stories, so these don't hold much interest for me, but I would really appreciate some solid supportable answers, because in spite of a great deal of searching, I have yet to find these answers.

Frankly Alan, while i quite understand your position here, many of us do not personally have your experience or access to all the "ideas and stories" in regards to this question. Ideas and stories can be more than a foundation for congenial conversation. They can sometimes feed hypothesis or spark theories and can lead us on to further discovery. Then sometimes they just lead us only to dead ends. But i see no reason to quash discussion here simply because the answers might remain unsubstantiated or because you have already heard all the stories. My only disclaimer here is that when we speak from a place of folklore it cannot be held up as absolute fact. It is what it is and must be examined and valued as such. But i think at this point we are probably all aware that there are many aspects of the keris that will always remain somewhat unsubstantiated to some extent.