Help with Identification please

imas560 · 29th September 2010, 09:55 PM

Scrubbed under running water, the blade pattern (pamor?) really starting to show and under light...so is the rust. I had a go at a small bit of rust and required a bit of work to remove. Will soak and scrub for another couple of days before getting in to the rust removal on the weekend.

A. G. Maisey · 29th September 2010, 11:47 PM

You do not do the rust picking away in one big slap.

You do it every time you take the blade out of the juice.

Once you remove a speck of rust, it will probably show again several times after you take the blade from the juice, so you clean it off every time you take the blade out of the juice and rinse and brush it. Eventually the rust no longer appears.

The process only takes a few minutes, its no big deal.

cedric Le Dauphin · 3rd October 2010, 11:43 AM

Hi everyone

I know I drop in a little late in the conversation, but it took me a while to through all the posting

Some of the forum mates know that I love keris and that my favourite subject is keris handles.

I don't want to blow on the ashes, but please do not immerge handles in boiling waters. It’s a waste. That is understood and the subject seems to gather everybody approving.

But something aroused in my mind that hasn't been mentioned in this posting.

Alan talked, very well by the way, about the isi, yoni, and digdaya.
Such things, that I believe in, are rarely talk and I understand it.
But nobody ever mention the relation between the handle and the blade. I know that the Malaysians don't give the same importance to the blade and to the handle (except in some rare cases and in the patan influenced area) but I would like to hear of the other keris lovers and pengukir.
Does anybody think that the handle is anything more than just a grip to handle the blade, and is there any opinion on the role of the handle on guarding or protecting the recipient faculty of the keris blade?

Regards, Cedric

A. G. Maisey · 3rd October 2010, 10:11 PM

That is a thoughtful question Cedric, however, I feel that if meaningful discussion is to flow from your question, you need to narrow the focus a little and define the geographic location, and the period, to which you wish the question to apply.

In other words:- where and when?

PenangsangII · 4th October 2010, 11:41 AM

Dear Cedric,

Actually Malaysians also put same importance to the keris hilts though not as much as the blade. Then again, it all depends on why we collect keris in the first place? If the purpose is "isian", then of course the way the collector's concerned perspective would vary, say compare to those collecting keris for the sake of the love of artistic objects. This also may vary depending on personal experience, gurus (if any) and peers.

Some of the Malaysian keris philosophy was adopted from the Bugis perspective, where not too long ago (even in 20th C), keris handls are attached to the blades permanently using traditional resins (mixture of damar, kemenyan, melati flower and a needle). This mixture has everything to do with esoteric requirement, and handles fixed like this, according to Bugis tradition, are not to be removed if the pamossa (isian?/yoni?/power etc..) is to be retained. Even when the keris is due to cleaning (Muharram /Maulud /Hari Raya Haji), only the blade is to be immersed in the cleaning solution. The hilt (and the watingan) is to be let dry.

As I also collect Bugis and pattani pieces beside Jawanese, I treat them according to the keris's origins... for a Bugis keris, I treat it like a Bugis would, and that also goes to the Pattani and Jawanese pieces.

cedric Le Dauphin · 4th October 2010, 06:36 PM

Hi everyone

Thanks for the answers

Alan I would suggest first java before second half of the 19th century.

regards

A. G. Maisey · 4th October 2010, 10:08 PM

Cedric, in his "History of Java", Raffles wrote something to the effect that at the time he was there the place of the keris in Javanese society was similar to the place of the small sword in European society, 50 years earlier. Raffles came to Jawa in 1811 or 1812.

So, if we're talking 50 years earlier, we're talking around 1750, we need to remember that the Court of Mataram moved from Kartasura to Surakarta in 1745. The Kartasura era was a troubled one, the period between the death of Sultan Agung and the establishment of Karatsura was continual turmoil, Sultan Agung's reign was characterised by war and expansion, Mataram itself was established in a fashion not dissimilar to a Mafia takeover, prior to Mataram we had Pajang which again was not really rooted in peaceful legitimacy, before Pajang , Demak which replaced Majapahit following the internal tensions that had weakened the power of this once mighty kingdom. As we all know, Demak was Islamic, and as a part of Islam's gentle insinuation into Javanese society, the keris was adopted as Islam's own.

To attempt to understand the original place of the keris in Javanese society, we need to go back to at least Majapahit, and we need to try to understand the place of the keris as a whole within that society, before we can begin to understand the place of a component part of that keris.

If we consider the hilt of the keris in Islamic Jawa, I would suggest that the hilt has no role other than to complete the dress.

Consider:- the maker of a keris blade can an mpu, in which case he is a cultural descendant of the same common ancestor as the rulers of Jawa, and he has the power to create a symbolically and magically charged cultural artifact; if he is not an mpu, he is at least a pande, or a craftsman.

On the other hand, the maker of a hilt is a tukang, "tukang jejeran", in other words a tradesman. Tradesmen are not engaged in the production of magically, or symbolically charged artifacts, they simply do a job for money.

To find a time in Jawa when the role of the hilt of a keris can be interpreted in terms other than utilitarian, we need to go back a very long way in time, and we need to gain an understanding not only of Javanese society at that time, but of the underlying values of societies within Maritime South East Asia.

Cedric, I could waffle on and provide several thousand words of ideas, hypotheses and unsupported rumours, but I cannot provide a single, solid supportable comment in answer to what I understand the core intent of your question to be. If you do indeed have an intense interest in this question, you may come to some understanding of the matter if you are prepared to immerse yourself in a study of the society of early Jawa, and of other more primitive societies in Maritime SE Asia in more recent times.

I cannot give you the answer you seek.

29th September 2010, 09:55 PM	#1
imas560 Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 180	Second Wash Part 2 Scrubbed under running water, the blade pattern (pamor?) really starting to show and under light...so is the rust. I had a go at a small bit of rust and required a bit of work to remove. Will soak and scrub for another couple of days before getting in to the rust removal on the weekend.

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29th September 2010, 11:47 PM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,994	You do not do the rust picking away in one big slap. You do it every time you take the blade out of the juice. Once you remove a speck of rust, it will probably show again several times after you take the blade from the juice, so you clean it off every time you take the blade out of the juice and rinse and brush it. Eventually the rust no longer appears. The process only takes a few minutes, its no big deal.

3rd October 2010, 11:43 AM	#3
cedric Le Dauphin Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Paris Posts: 39	Hi everyone I know I drop in a little late in the conversation, but it took me a while to through all the posting Some of the forum mates know that I love keris and that my favourite subject is keris handles. I don't want to blow on the ashes, but please do not immerge handles in boiling waters. It’s a waste. That is understood and the subject seems to gather everybody approving. But something aroused in my mind that hasn't been mentioned in this posting. Alan talked, very well by the way, about the isi, yoni, and digdaya. Such things, that I believe in, are rarely talk and I understand it. But nobody ever mention the relation between the handle and the blade. I know that the Malaysians don't give the same importance to the blade and to the handle (except in some rare cases and in the patan influenced area) but I would like to hear of the other keris lovers and pengukir. Does anybody think that the handle is anything more than just a grip to handle the blade, and is there any opinion on the role of the handle on guarding or protecting the recipient faculty of the keris blade? Regards, Cedric

3rd October 2010, 10:11 PM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,994	That is a thoughtful question Cedric, however, I feel that if meaningful discussion is to flow from your question, you need to narrow the focus a little and define the geographic location, and the period, to which you wish the question to apply. In other words:- where and when?

4th October 2010, 11:41 AM	#5
PenangsangII Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 401	Dear Cedric, Actually Malaysians also put same importance to the keris hilts though not as much as the blade. Then again, it all depends on why we collect keris in the first place? If the purpose is "isian", then of course the way the collector's concerned perspective would vary, say compare to those collecting keris for the sake of the love of artistic objects. This also may vary depending on personal experience, gurus (if any) and peers. Some of the Malaysian keris philosophy was adopted from the Bugis perspective, where not too long ago (even in 20th C), keris handls are attached to the blades permanently using traditional resins (mixture of damar, kemenyan, melati flower and a needle). This mixture has everything to do with esoteric requirement, and handles fixed like this, according to Bugis tradition, are not to be removed if the pamossa (isian?/yoni?/power etc..) is to be retained. Even when the keris is due to cleaning (Muharram /Maulud /Hari Raya Haji), only the blade is to be immersed in the cleaning solution. The hilt (and the watingan) is to be let dry. As I also collect Bugis and pattani pieces beside Jawanese, I treat them according to the keris's origins... for a Bugis keris, I treat it like a Bugis would, and that also goes to the Pattani and Jawanese pieces.

4th October 2010, 06:36 PM	#6
cedric Le Dauphin Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Paris Posts: 39	Hi everyone Thanks for the answers Alan I would suggest first java before second half of the 19th century. regards

4th October 2010, 10:08 PM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,994	Cedric, in his "History of Java", Raffles wrote something to the effect that at the time he was there the place of the keris in Javanese society was similar to the place of the small sword in European society, 50 years earlier. Raffles came to Jawa in 1811 or 1812. So, if we're talking 50 years earlier, we're talking around 1750, we need to remember that the Court of Mataram moved from Kartasura to Surakarta in 1745. The Kartasura era was a troubled one, the period between the death of Sultan Agung and the establishment of Karatsura was continual turmoil, Sultan Agung's reign was characterised by war and expansion, Mataram itself was established in a fashion not dissimilar to a Mafia takeover, prior to Mataram we had Pajang which again was not really rooted in peaceful legitimacy, before Pajang , Demak which replaced Majapahit following the internal tensions that had weakened the power of this once mighty kingdom. As we all know, Demak was Islamic, and as a part of Islam's gentle insinuation into Javanese society, the keris was adopted as Islam's own. To attempt to understand the original place of the keris in Javanese society, we need to go back to at least Majapahit, and we need to try to understand the place of the keris as a whole within that society, before we can begin to understand the place of a component part of that keris. If we consider the hilt of the keris in Islamic Jawa, I would suggest that the hilt has no role other than to complete the dress. Consider:- the maker of a keris blade can an mpu, in which case he is a cultural descendant of the same common ancestor as the rulers of Jawa, and he has the power to create a symbolically and magically charged cultural artifact; if he is not an mpu, he is at least a pande, or a craftsman. On the other hand, the maker of a hilt is a tukang, "tukang jejeran", in other words a tradesman. Tradesmen are not engaged in the production of magically, or symbolically charged artifacts, they simply do a job for money. To find a time in Jawa when the role of the hilt of a keris can be interpreted in terms other than utilitarian, we need to go back a very long way in time, and we need to gain an understanding not only of Javanese society at that time, but of the underlying values of societies within Maritime South East Asia. Cedric, I could waffle on and provide several thousand words of ideas, hypotheses and unsupported rumours, but I cannot provide a single, solid supportable comment in answer to what I understand the core intent of your question to be. If you do indeed have an intense interest in this question, you may come to some understanding of the matter if you are prepared to immerse yourself in a study of the society of early Jawa, and of other more primitive societies in Maritime SE Asia in more recent times. I cannot give you the answer you seek.