Mystery Dagger

[Ron Anderson]

On this question, it has always puzzled me why Moroccan weapons include such a large number of European blades, and also patterns that have been adapted from European designs (such as this one, potentially).

This includes, Nimchas etc, which are patently non-European forms, but so often have old European blades.

Why is this? Is this evidence of Moorish influence in Southern Europe, and subsequent European counter-influence in Africa?

Personally, I prefer artefacts that are not mixed and matched in this way. However, perhaps that approach is a bit puritanical.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Ron Anderson

On this question, it has always puzzled me why Moroccan weapons include such a large number of European blades, and also patterns that have been adapted from European designs (such as this one, potentially).

This includes, Nimchas etc, which are patently non-European forms, but so often have old European blades.

Why is this? Is this evidence of Moorish influence in Southern Europe, and subsequent European counter-influence in Africa?

Personally, I prefer artefacts that are not mixed and matched in this way. However, perhaps that approach is a bit puritanical.

Alan, as always my pleasure! and small return in kind for your help over these many years .

Ron, actually the nimcha is not entirely non European in that it is actually diffused from early North Italian hilt forms via Arab traders, with the influence becoming prominent in the Maghrebi littoral by probably by the latter 16th century. It was well established there by the 17th, in fact English merchants in trade with Morocco are seen in portraits in England wearing these in at least two portraits. By the 17th and 18th centuries European trade blades had become prevalent in North Africa via various port entries, and materials entered the ancient caravan routes diffusing them as is well established.
Naturally the complexity of all this history, trade networks and perpetual diffusion of weapon forms, influences and components would take far more to detail than could be placed here...even in my 'brief posts .

For me, and I know many others, the allure of ethnographic weapons is very much the complexity and solving the mysteries of these influences, diffusion and development of weapon forms. Learning the nuances of local hilt forms and the styles and markings of various European and other trade blades that help assess periods and origins are all part of being 'weapons detectives'
Your preferences are not 'puritanical' ..just preferences, and we all have different ones. The thing with ethnographic weapons is that it is often difficult to find examples that are not refurbished in thier working lives using other components, which also may be trade products. The presence of European blades became steadily more prevalent in medieval times after the crusades, and the Moroccan sa'if was but one example of the swords that also had European blades from Spain, Germany and Italy, such as the takouba and the kaskara.

Many hold the Moroccan janbiyya (koummya) to have the lunette style pommel derived from the North Italian cinquedea; the Moroccan s'boula with the H shaped grip from the European basilard, with many of these using bayonet blades from the colonial French; the Manding sabres use French cavalry sabre blades by the 19th century. To the east much of the influence is Ottoman and the list goes on.
Basically, the development of weapons is found in the history of trade, warfare, and colonial expansion.

Im glad you're with us, and soon you may discover yourself hooked too! Its addicting.

All best regards,
Jim

[Ron Anderson]

Hi Jim

Thanks for your comments here. I was unaware of the evolution of the nimcha.

I do have an appreciation of the dynamics of historic processes. These are interesting, of course.

And yes, I can see the fascination of being able to trace these forces in daggers, knives, swords etc. This is intriguing, even to those of us who don't have all that much experience or knowledge to work with.

Regarding this particular dagger, however, I have my doubts.

If this dagger was created in the late 19th century or later, one has to wonder what the intent of that was.

Was it made for tourists? Even in the 1800s, because of its position at the cross roads of various routes, it seems Morocco was a tourist hub.

I know that the Moroccan jambiya became a popular tourist purchase, even in the 19th century.

If that is the case, in my mind it just makes the dagger less an authentic reflection of a particular time and place. But the blade is very nice. All in all, the dagger presents well. It just no longer seems a cohesive artefact.

I must admit, I do not have a great fondness for North African or Islamic weapons. However, in principal, I have no problem with the fact that different cultures cross-fertilise and that influences in design spread from one place to another.

Up to a point.

I think most people here would not be too taken with a dagger that had a Nazi SS blade cobbled onto a Sykes commando knife hilt, fitting into a scabbard originally made for a Danish naval dirk. Rather than presenting an interesting story, it would just seem like a mismatched hodge podge.

[celtan]

Hi Guys,

Interesting thread. I suspect that the grip and the brass placard in the ricasso are of recent (WWI onwards) addition. Nice looking dagger, though.

Best

M

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Ron,
Very good points, and I see what you mean about wondering about the 'comprehensively' appointed items often created commercially for tourist souveniers. These in my view are tantamount to the fantasy wares that make those of us seriously interested in weapons history cringe.

It is important to remember that in many cultures, many weapon forms remain key accoutrements and traditional items of costume. In many cases of course they are intended to be fully functional weapons, despite more apparant as status symbols, case in point the janbiyya/khanjhar in many regions of Arabia and the Middle East. Throughout Africa, weapons have been maintained tribally into present times, and in these cultures weapons that often have bizarre shapes have become sought after art pieces.

I suppose that my point is that a reasonably modern made ethnographic weapon is not necessarily a bauble to be hawked to bumbling tourists. In many cases the items are actually worn as an element of dress, as noted, and if a traveller buys it, the individual simply gets another. There are of course souks and bazaars with huge heaps of traditionally fashioned weapons for sale.

The weapons that, as previously noted, might have various recycled or trade components are most likely pieces fashioned 'in the field' for actual use by locals in my opinion. This is because they are essentially custom made using often heirloom components. In the Sahara and the Sudan the broadswords still worn to this day are typically old blades passed down, and often rehilted and mounted as they change hands or become excessively worn.

The notes on the German dagger and Fairburn-Sykes were expressed comparitively however, and not suggesting these components were ever used on modern ethnographic daggers...but knowing the innovation of local armourers, if such were handy, I would not be surprised if they would be used. In that case, I would be inclined to turn away from the item as well.

In Arabia, North Africa, Central Asia and many regions, edged weapons remain integral components of dress and in some cases, actual use in tribal cultures. As such, I have always considered these weapons outstanding examples of the traditions of these cultures still alive and well even into modern times. Even in western culture, the hunting knife is of course well known as of course a prevalent untilitarian item, which of course often reflects traditional styling, such as the famed Bowie form from the early 1830s (or as surmised).

For me I always think it is interesting to find weapons with incongruent components as if the match can be substantiated either forensically or historically, it presents fascinating possibilities. Much of our discussion can often be focused on these kinds of circumstances, and if it were simply a perfect typological match of a weapon from a standard reference, there wouldnt be half the fun

In your posts you clearly are well versed historically and your comments reflect astute observation, so I kind of hope you will 'get the bug' too !
Around here we are sort of the Baker Street group of 'weapons detectives' and it really is great fun as we get 'new cases' ! Everyone here has key specialties, many wide experience, some are artists, some scientific, and with all these perspectives, the dimensions reached in examination are fantastic.

As always a pleasure talking with you, and thanks for the opportunity to expound on this topic!

All the best,
JIm