Mystery Dagger

[fearn]

Sorry Ron,

It's my misreading of your paragraph on the Holbein dagger.

I tend to agree with you on the age of the piece (I'm guessing century or less) but I'm trying to figure out what's going on with the ricasso and the horn on the grip. Either it's a really nice, slowly corroding alloy, or someone has done a really nice job cleaning it. With the horn on the grips, it's showing only minor splits, which again argues for good care or good climate control so that the horn didn't dry out and crack.

It's an interesting mix, since the blade is in rougher condition, and the guard is appears to be showing a bit of rust. It makes me wonder if it was rehilted at some point, while retaining the original guard.

F

[Ron Anderson]

I would agree that it is not unlikely the grip has been replaced, but maybe quite a while ago.

There are oils that help revitalise horn. Apparently these oils are made of cow hooves. So perhaps its just been treated recently.

Also a possibility.

I think it's an attractive dagger.

But I haven't convinced myself entirely that it is what I've suggested.

Frankly, it could be anything.

[Tim Simmons]

I would not be surprised if this knife from Corsica or other Med Islands especially ones that have had an Islamic influence. There are strong Spanish and Italian styles in the form. I can post pics from "Swords & Daggers, Frederick Wilkinson", "Edged Weapons, Fredrick Wilkinson" and "Swords & Bayonets, R.J. Wilkinson-Latham". All 16-17cent pieces and rather fine. This dagger is so similar but more simple with that ethnic look. Could be late 18th cent, very nice too.

[Jim McDougall]

I have been watching this discussion with great interest and must admit that the outstanding observations by all participating truly reflect the fascination in studying these weapons. Even the simplest appearing piece carries certain nuances that test everyones store of knowledge and recognition.
I would note here also that it is virtually impossible for the extremely modest Mr.Maisey to utter anything that could possible be considered less than scholarly observation! ...so the word stupid is not in the realm of anything he says or writes so Alan we will disregard that sentence.

I think what makes ethnographic weapons often such conundrums is the fact that they reflect representations of regional historical tradition as well as the influences of many colonial and trade powers throughout centuries, and thier histories as well. While this weapon seems to reflect strong European style, it is the question whether it is in fact European, and with considerable age, or from colonial or trade regions and carrying those influences.

The grip is of a simple relatively convergent style with a waisted shape that is seen in countless forms on the hilts of edged weapons, and indeed was present on the previously mentioned German SA daggers introduced in 1933.
Much in the same sense, these called atavistically on the traditional 15th-16th century 'Holbein' daggers as the emphasis on early heritage is often used to carry nationalistically charged motivation. It is a powerful device that is reflected in the fashioning of many weapons in more modern times that have classical or historic designs.

The 'crab claw' quillons are indeed descended from European design, in particular many 'left hand' or parrying daggers which often accompanied rapiers in the late 16th-17th century. These scrolled down quillons are in turn derived from earlier Italian and Hispano-Moresque hilts which had become popular in the 15th century, and became essentially considered an Islamic feature from the Sacred Swords in Istanbul which were respectfully remounted when refurbished by the Ottomans.

The presence of the encircled dot is an often appearing symbol which is among the oldest symbols known in temporal motif, being found across parts of Asia, the Indian subcontinent, and is particularly well known in the Balkans and Afghan regions and contiguous regions of Central Asia. It has become extremely prevalent in North Africa, especially from Saharan regions and into Berber regions in the Maghreb, presumably from the same trade contacts which may be the source of many weapon forms. As the simple design is of primarily solar association among other possibilities, it lends well to the key beliefs in folk religions and thought, so is understandable as a pleasantly aesthetic design.

The median ridge, lozenge cross section blade is quite typical of European daggers, structurally well suited for thrusting, and characteristic of many forms used through medieval times on everything from ballocks to basilards.
I believe even the more modern famed Fairburn-Sykes combat knife has a blade of this section. As this particular cross section is not in my thought typical of North African blades, the blade itself may well be European.

Moving to the intriguing gold metal fretwork collar around the blade forte; here is where we really move toward the Maghreb. This type collar or bolster around the based of the hilt/blade root is somewhat characteristic of the well known 'koummya' or Moroccan janbiyya, while the dagger itself seems to be a somewhat smaller version of s'boula, produced in representation of one of the earlier European left hand daggers previously noted.

I think here we see the confluence of European and North African styles, perhaps with this even being a European blade, and refurbished in these regions recalling known classical forms. I would concur with the date assessment of late 19th into early 20th of the assembly, and consider the possibility of the blade earlier European.

All best regards,
Jim

[A. G. Maisey]

I thank all for sharing their thoughts on this dagger, and especially you, Jim, for your thoughtful analysis and the undeserved compliments.

Interesting indeed. I would not have thought that we could fix something like this in North Africa, but it appears that perhaps that region may be the best bet.

Thanks again.

[Ron Anderson]

On this question, it has always puzzled me why Moroccan weapons include such a large number of European blades, and also patterns that have been adapted from European designs (such as this one, potentially).

This includes, Nimchas etc, which are patently non-European forms, but so often have old European blades.

Why is this? Is this evidence of Moorish influence in Southern Europe, and subsequent European counter-influence in Africa?

Personally, I prefer artefacts that are not mixed and matched in this way. However, perhaps that approach is a bit puritanical.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Ron Anderson

On this question, it has always puzzled me why Moroccan weapons include such a large number of European blades, and also patterns that have been adapted from European designs (such as this one, potentially).

This includes, Nimchas etc, which are patently non-European forms, but so often have old European blades.

Why is this? Is this evidence of Moorish influence in Southern Europe, and subsequent European counter-influence in Africa?

Personally, I prefer artefacts that are not mixed and matched in this way. However, perhaps that approach is a bit puritanical.

Alan, as always my pleasure! and small return in kind for your help over these many years .

Ron, actually the nimcha is not entirely non European in that it is actually diffused from early North Italian hilt forms via Arab traders, with the influence becoming prominent in the Maghrebi littoral by probably by the latter 16th century. It was well established there by the 17th, in fact English merchants in trade with Morocco are seen in portraits in England wearing these in at least two portraits. By the 17th and 18th centuries European trade blades had become prevalent in North Africa via various port entries, and materials entered the ancient caravan routes diffusing them as is well established.
Naturally the complexity of all this history, trade networks and perpetual diffusion of weapon forms, influences and components would take far more to detail than could be placed here...even in my 'brief posts .

For me, and I know many others, the allure of ethnographic weapons is very much the complexity and solving the mysteries of these influences, diffusion and development of weapon forms. Learning the nuances of local hilt forms and the styles and markings of various European and other trade blades that help assess periods and origins are all part of being 'weapons detectives'
Your preferences are not 'puritanical' ..just preferences, and we all have different ones. The thing with ethnographic weapons is that it is often difficult to find examples that are not refurbished in thier working lives using other components, which also may be trade products. The presence of European blades became steadily more prevalent in medieval times after the crusades, and the Moroccan sa'if was but one example of the swords that also had European blades from Spain, Germany and Italy, such as the takouba and the kaskara.

Many hold the Moroccan janbiyya (koummya) to have the lunette style pommel derived from the North Italian cinquedea; the Moroccan s'boula with the H shaped grip from the European basilard, with many of these using bayonet blades from the colonial French; the Manding sabres use French cavalry sabre blades by the 19th century. To the east much of the influence is Ottoman and the list goes on.
Basically, the development of weapons is found in the history of trade, warfare, and colonial expansion.

Im glad you're with us, and soon you may discover yourself hooked too! Its addicting.

All best regards,
Jim