Help with Identification please

[BigG]

Firstly let me state that I agree that the dress of the keris is of equal importance to the blade of the keris. I have personally never used the boiling method and have been careful to inform ay craftsmen who would restore pieces that I own to not employ this method. I personally value the asthetics of the dress as much as I do the blade. The pcs that I have shared wth here and would share more in the future, wld attest to this... But what I am stating here is the fact, that this method is employed by many, not all... but many as a means of removing a hilt. And I have given the forumers the rationale of why this method is being employed by many in this particular region...

And that rationale in my opinion is bcos of the inordinate importance that is given by them to the blade as well as the peksi as oppose to the dress, especially the hilt. The other rationale to this is because of the relative ease in which a hilt can be replace here... new or antique... I have endeavoured to inform the forumers here, newbies & veterans alike that there is an alternative but it is chosen as a result of the specific context of the situation found here. That this method is found to be shocking or unacceptable should not detract from the fact that it exist and is being employed. I accept that it is unacceptable to many in the forum... It is also something that would not be resorted to by many here, including myself... but that it exist, and is considered valid by peope for the reasons that I have mentioned should also be made known.

Be critical of this method if you feel needful to by all means... Explain the contextual rationale behind it to make the forumers understand why this may not be something that they should consider, by all means... but surely by any standard of decorum... labelling a member's effort at disclosing what he applies and intend to share in good faith as an act of barbarism & idiocy would be far from what wld be considered as restrained. We may disagree about what is being said, we should endeavour to tamper its impact and we should if we believe that we know better... but we should not maligned these views the way that it has been done here...

As we Malays would say it;
"Orang berbudi kita berbahasa"...
As they are civil so are we courteous. ..

Lets reciprocate ideas and views sounded off in good faith in the manner that it deserves...

[David]

Gentlemen, please allow me to state my views here.
We have here a new collector seeking advice on methods of cleaning and restoration. I think that it is important that we consider when we give advise in such a case that the new and relatively uninformed collector may well try a method when it is suggested to him. I personally would feel remiss if i did not stand up and yell loudly from the hilltop if i were to see someone suggest a methodology which i felt could be dangerous or damaging to any part of a keris. I think that for the most part we all consider the blade to take a prime position of importance when we deal with the keris. However, i also believe that the vast majority of collectors on this forum are also interested in preserving dress, especially antique dress, and most particularly well crafted dress whenever possible. I am also not completely convinced that it is always the Malay's notion that the dress is unimportant compared to the blade. I can't, for instance, see any of our Malay collectors using this boiling water method on their favorite antique keris tajong. Neither am i convinced that well carved antique tajong hilt are at all easy to replace, even for those who live in the region and i might be wrong, but whenever i have seen tajong presented the emphasis of importance always seems to be on the dress, not the blade.
I don't think that anyone is dismissing the actuality of this practice of boiling hilts as one that it commonly done. We are simply remarking on the fact that commonly done or not, it is not a good idea. To present such a method to an impressionable new collect is also not a good idea, especially when methods have already been presented that have been proven to work and not damage any part of the keris.
I am not sure that i would use the words that Mr. Maisey has in describing this practice, however, i would not argue with his viewpoint either. Many things throughout history have been accepted by certain facet of society, but that did not make them necessarily good ideas. If you would allow an admittedly extreme example, it was once considered necessary,right and proper for a woman to throw herself (or be thrown) upon her husbands funeral pyre (sati) in Hindu culture. That it was condoned, that it was a fact, didn't make it a good idea.
I suggest that we proceed with caution here in this discussion. I do not believe it is anyone's intention to dismiss or insult the practices of any person or group of people here so i trust that we can all remain civil and calm. I see nothing wrong with discussing different ideas and method used for anything keris related on this forum, but i also think that it is most important that we make clear the possible dangers that some of these methods might hold, especially for impressionable new collectors seeking the best and lest invasive methods of restoration. Not to do so would be irresponsible

[A. G. Maisey]

Big G, I thank you for your further explanation.

The situation as it applies in Singapore and Malaysia is now much more clear to me. Perhaps if something like this had been written initially you may have been able to avoid taking umbrage at my most civil and restrained comments.

My comments were most certainly critical, and were intended to be.

To offer advice such this to people with little experience or knowledge could result in severe loss for such people.Apparently you concur with this point of view, as you now advise us that you do not subscribe to the boiling water philosophy.

May I suggest that you swallow your bile and re-read my post that has seemingly caused you such offence?

To assist you in this I quote here the words to which you seem to object:-

In my most humble opinion the practice here related of immersing a complete hilt into boiling water in order to remove it from a blade is most certainly barbaric and verges upon idiocy.

Please take note:-

I have given my opinion that the act of immersing a hilt into boiling water is an act that I consider to be barbaric and verging upon idiocy.

I have not said that Penangsang's effort at relating this act was one of barbarism and near idiocy; in fact, I offer Penangsang my sincere thanks for providing me with this information, as it permits me to form an opinion of the level of professionalism that is to be found in respect of keris restoration in Singapore and Malaysia.

However, although I appreciate this invaluable gain in knowledge, I repeat that to offer such advice to the inexperienced is more than a little irresponsible.

There is a very great difference between describing an act as barbaric and verging upon idiocy, and describing the recounting of that act as barbaric and verging upon idiocy.

I'm sure that when you have reread and understood what I have written you will be able to appreciate this difference.

Now, to address your little gem of wisdom, which seems to imply that I may have been discourteous.

Big G, I always endeavor to be as polite as is possible when I write in this forum. In this present exchange I have not varied from this approach. I have restrained myself from saying what I would like to say about this boiling water business, and I have directed my very restrained criticism at the act itself. My remarks in respect of those who engage in this practice have been limited to offering some advice, which, as with all advice, they are free to accept or reject as they see fit:-

I would most sincerely suggest that the people who currently subscribe to the boiling water philosophy would be doing themselves and their clients a very great service by seeking out some instruction from true professionals in this field of keris restoration.

I most earnestly request that you read only the words I have written, rather than to imagine that which I have not written.

In order to demonstrate that I bear you no ill will because of your misrepresentation of my comments, I will terminate my involvement in this exchange at this point. Should you have anything to add, please do so in confidence that I will not respond to any further of your posts in this matter.

[BigG]

Mr Maisey... I fully understand what it is that you had said and the intended manner of its saying...

As a Malay would put it, I truly understand what has been written "yang tersurat" and what is implied behind it "yang tersirat". I end this exchange with you with a gift of a Pantun (Traditional Malay quatrain)...

Tumbuh di rimba si daun palas
Gugur di hutan berbelas-belas
Kata hamba kata beralas
Kata tuan duri berhias

By the woods the leaves a-twining
Green grown their tendrils a-winding
My words... are words a-soothing
Thy own.. barbed and wounding

Rgds..

[Alam Shah]

Dear friends, I live in Singapore and have never used the boiling water treatment. Most of my fellow collectors here, do not subscribe to this treatment, as well, although we are aware of it.

Personally, I value the few old hilts that I have and would prefer to use other techniques of hilt removal to prevent damage to them. Hilts are easily replaced but in the olden days, they are highly prized item, normally made of selected quality materials, with certain attributes to them. From a cultural aspect, it does represents something that if understood, one would value it.

Currently I do have a piece which I have difficulty removing. A Sumatran keris, with what I believe to be a rhino hilt. Any suggestions on what course of action I should take?

[David]

Shahrial, thank you for providing different perspective from the Singapore keris community.
I nice and unusual hilt you have there. I certainly don't think you would want to destroy it for the sake of the blade.
I presume you have already tried applying heat to the blade as has been described in this thread? I know sometimes it takes much persistence an repetition.

[Rick]

The heat also needs some time to penetrate up the pesi and stay there; especially if you are trying to melt/soften a substance .

Yes, I'd say that's Rhino .

[A. G. Maisey]

Thank you Shahrial for your further clarification of the place that the technique of boiling a hilt free of the pesi occupies in your part of the world. I can now understand that this is far from being a generally utilised practice, and it seems that perhaps it may be used by only a very few people. It is comforting to know that the practice is not as widespread as it initially appeared to be.

This keris that you have shown a photo of will very likely take an extended period of time before it gives up its hilt. I have encountered several cases where I have needed to heat and reheat over a long time before the hilt finally came free. In all cases the hilt materials were other than wood; one was ivory, a couple were horn, one was probably rhino horn, and one was very similar to the hilt on your keris.

In a couple of these instances, when the hilt finally did come free the pesi was only about as thick as a darning needle, inside the hole in the hilt there were layers of rust. When a pesi is as badly rusted as these were it is very easy to break , so you need to proceed very carefully and do not overdo the twisting action, rather apply very little twisting force, and try to pull the hilt free by gripping the blade with your left hand and pushing your thumbs against one another.

In other instances I have found that perhaps half the length of the pesi has turned completely into rust.

I would suggest that you heat the sorsoran, combined with gentle twisting and pulling action, every day or so, over an extended period of time. Be patient with it, it doesn't matter if it takes several months before it comes free, but the repeated heating and cooling with loosen any bond over time. If you grip the blade about halfway down, and apply heat to the sorsoran, when the blade gets too hot to hold, that's the time when you stop, you set it aside until it cools a little and then repeat, probably about 15 or 20 minutes at a time is sufficient to work at it. Then come back to it again the following day.

The silver (?) cover on the gonjo should not be a problem, but of course you will ensure that no direct heat is applied to it.

[Alam Shah]

Originally Posted by Rick

The heat also needs some time to penetrate up the pesi and stay there; especially if you are trying to melt/soften a substance .

Yes, I'd say that's Rhino .

Thanks, point noted. It took me a while to identify it as rhino.. and it takes ages to convince friends.. When Michael Marlow (VVV), was in Singapore, we met at MAG, Adni was also skeptical but Kai Wee was somewhat convinced..

[Alam Shah]

Originally Posted by David

I presume you have already tried applying heat to the blade as has been described in this thread? I know sometimes it takes much persistence an repetition.

Believe me, I've tried.. I usually use the candle technique, safest method yet.. then I'll put it in between a phone book, and gently try to twist the hilt.. This is my hardest hilt yet..

[A. G. Maisey]

Alam Shah, going back a few years I had a pedang that took me about a year to get the hilt off.

I bought it in Solo, and I wanted to get it stained there before I brought it home. I worked on it for the time I was there, probably about a month, and it did not shift even a little bit. I kept working on it when I got home, not every day, but whenever I had time and remembered.

It was a pedang, so it had a square section tang, not a round tang, that meant it could only be very slightly worked side to side while it was being pulled.

It took me months and months to get it free, and when it finally did come out of the hilt, at least half the tang was left in the hilt in the form of rust.

In my experience, the heating/cooling treatment will always free a tang, but it takes time. You just keep working at it and don't lose patience.

I once saw Pak Parman work on a hilt every single day for 6 weeks, using a candle for heat, at the end of the six weeks it was just beginning to move.

[kai]

Hello Shahrial,

Currently I do have a piece which I have difficulty removing. A Sumatran keris, with what I believe to be a rhino hilt. Any suggestions on what course of action I should take?

Yes, most definitely: Please send it over to me....

How many times (and how long) have you tried the heating cycle?

Regards,
Kai

[Alam Shah]

Originally Posted by kai

Hello Shahrial,

Yes, most definitely: Please send it over to me....

How many times (and how long) have you tried the heating cycle?

Regards,
Kai

Yeah Kai, as far as I can remember, you already have this blade form.. I've tried at least 10 times, over a period of one year.. I've done as what Alan explained.. with one hand holding the blade to feel if it's too hot.. sometimes I use a piece of cloth, so that I can heat the blade a little hotter.. normally, 3 cycles..

[kai]

Hello Shahrial,

Yeah Kai, as far as I can remember, you already have this blade form..

That's comparing a noble breed with a mundane work horse... (in any case that's the beauty of handmade pieces - you can always find an excuse why you have to add something to any given collection... )

I'd also try to hold the temperature for a slightly longer time in this case (expecting the pesi to be glued with damar). BTW, any signs of rust build-up where the pesi enters the hilt if you can get a peek?

Regards,
Kai