19th century gothic dagger?

Marc · 31st August 2010, 03:59 PM

Over the years I've seen a good handful of daggers of this type (the ones Fernando posted, I mean), with some variations (horn, ebony or ivory handles, for example, and either straight or wavy blades), but all of similar size and style, and all with the same kind of lenticular ricasso, also.
At least one of them (sorry, no pictures) was marked in the ricasso with:

1875
TOLEDO

I tend to consider them as fancy/utility/defence-if-there's-nothing-else-available, late 19th early 20th. Yes, here in Spain they are also frequently associated with... er... well, women who smoke and call you "honey"... but, frankly, I still have to find any reference that could give some real substance to this association. Until proven otherwise, I prefer to think of it as another "Collector's Label".
I kind of like the type, they are elegant and "chic", if you get my drift. The one presented here is a particularly nice one, though, even if only for the sculptural work. Congratulations

.

Jim McDougall · 31st August 2010, 06:40 PM

My pleasure Ron! but I'm afraid I havent added much but plausible ideas, and as you note, estimating age is a tough one, especially after an item has been cleaned and (to me, sadly) the patination is gone. There are traces of it here in the hilt figure so there is some age, and I agree, the conditions in which the weapon has been held have great bearing on these things.

As I mentioned, this is clearly in '19th century style' as beautifully illustrated by Fernando and also well observed by Marc. Getting back to the colorful 'pulp fiction' collectors tales about being for ladies of the evening, like most of these stories, mostly hyperbole. This is not to say these might not have found such use, but then, its like assuming every 'gambler' in the 1880's in the American Wild West saloons carried a pocket derringer; every gunfighter had a Colt .45 'peacemaker' etc .
These daggers have effectively made blades, so they're not just decorative from what I can see, but they are an accoutrement, and clearly made to be seen, not concealed. That is why they seem to possibly be intended as a votive item ceremonially, or perhaps worn in the societal sense previously mentioned.

This is most likely 'vintage' (good word Ron!

and with intriguing possibilities, which is a good thing for those of us with a bit of the romantic (an affliction which seems to go with the territory for empassioned collector/historians

Marc, hard to look at these interesting daggers and not think of Cirlot, and the symbolics!

All best regards,
Jim

Ron Anderson · 1st September 2010, 02:42 AM

Well, it's a keeper, certainly, but probably worth what I paid.

I'll be looking for more of these sorts of daggers. I agree, they are quite chic.

spiral · 5th September 2010, 09:12 PM

As a further edtion to the link of my "stubbern mule thread" posted by David here was the follow up thread to it!

linky!.....

There fascinating pieces, personly I doubt if many prostitutes bought fancy knives, the ponces ,pimps & brothel keepers might have done if they fancied though, after all they were the ones who usualy kept the money, I would surmise.

spiral

Ron Anderson · 6th September 2010, 03:24 AM

Thanks Spiral

I enjoyed that thread.

These are great knives. I'll be looking for more.

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31st August 2010, 03:59 PM	#1
Marc Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Madrid / Barcelona Posts: 256	Over the years I've seen a good handful of daggers of this type (the ones Fernando posted, I mean), with some variations (horn, ebony or ivory handles, for example, and either straight or wavy blades), but all of similar size and style, and all with the same kind of lenticular ricasso, also. At least one of them (sorry, no pictures) was marked in the ricasso with: 1875 TOLEDO I tend to consider them as fancy/utility/defence-if-there's-nothing-else-available, late 19th early 20th. Yes, here in Spain they are also frequently associated with... er... well, women who smoke and call you "honey"... but, frankly, I still have to find any reference that could give some real substance to this association. Until proven otherwise, I prefer to think of it as another "Collector's Label". I kind of like the type, they are elegant and "chic", if you get my drift. The one presented here is a particularly nice one, though, even if only for the sculptural work. Congratulations .

31st August 2010, 06:40 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,193	My pleasure Ron! but I'm afraid I havent added much but plausible ideas, and as you note, estimating age is a tough one, especially after an item has been cleaned and (to me, sadly) the patination is gone. There are traces of it here in the hilt figure so there is some age, and I agree, the conditions in which the weapon has been held have great bearing on these things. As I mentioned, this is clearly in '19th century style' as beautifully illustrated by Fernando and also well observed by Marc. Getting back to the colorful 'pulp fiction' collectors tales about being for ladies of the evening, like most of these stories, mostly hyperbole. This is not to say these might not have found such use, but then, its like assuming every 'gambler' in the 1880's in the American Wild West saloons carried a pocket derringer; every gunfighter had a Colt .45 'peacemaker' etc . These daggers have effectively made blades, so they're not just decorative from what I can see, but they are an accoutrement, and clearly made to be seen, not concealed. That is why they seem to possibly be intended as a votive item ceremonially, or perhaps worn in the societal sense previously mentioned. This is most likely 'vintage' (good word Ron! and with intriguing possibilities, which is a good thing for those of us with a bit of the romantic (an affliction which seems to go with the territory for empassioned collector/historians Marc, hard to look at these interesting daggers and not think of Cirlot, and the symbolics! All best regards, Jim

1st September 2010, 02:42 AM	#3
Ron Anderson Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Sydney Australia Posts: 228	Well, it's a keeper, certainly, but probably worth what I paid. I'll be looking for more of these sorts of daggers. I agree, they are quite chic.

5th September 2010, 09:12 PM	#4
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	As a further edtion to the link of my "stubbern mule thread" posted by David here was the follow up thread to it! linky!..... There fascinating pieces, personly I doubt if many prostitutes bought fancy knives, the ponces ,pimps & brothel keepers might have done if they fancied though, after all they were the ones who usualy kept the money, I would surmise. spiral

6th September 2010, 03:24 AM	#5
Ron Anderson Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Sydney Australia Posts: 228	Thanks Spiral I enjoyed that thread. These are great knives. I'll be looking for more.