Early Pandor Yataghan sabre??

[Jim McDougall]

These are some hirschfanger type swords in Vienna in a museum display which have been suggested 'of the type' often carried by pandours. The example on the left has a crossguard which seems reminiscent of the much heavier and workmanlike guard on the example we are discussing. It should be noted of course that the grip is of the familiar European hanger form of the mid 18th century and for quite a number of years later.

I would point out that the blade on this example in the Vienna illustration has a very curious clipped point. In Gerhard Seifert's 1962 book, "Schwert Degen Sabel" he has a group of line drawings illustrating blade sections and point types and terminology......there is a tip remarkably like the one on this Vienna sword which carries the term 'pandour point'. There was unfortunately no further material elaborating on the source of the term, but interesting to see of course the pandour term. Actually back in those days, I admit to being among those who had no idea what a pandour was !!

Getting back to Andys sword, it would be tempting to connect the guard to being of somewhat that style, however it is far outside the mid 18th century period in my opinion, and far too heavy to be considered of this type.

The 'pandour' use of yataghans would likely have been of traditional form, by the foot troops as previously noted, and these did not have guards of course....as noted as well, it is only presumed what kinds of weapons would have been used, but yataghans as far as I know did not have this kind of guard.

The hangers used by von Trencks forces, as shown by type in Buttin (1933) were typically of karabela type hilt, and did not have yataghan type blades.
There was apparantly a type of yataghan blade, larger and deep bellied, and believed to have been used by cavalry of European auxiliary troops modelled on the pandour units, from later in the 18th century. These swords seem to have had cleft yataghan style hilts of staghorn and were based on many of the hirshfangers of the period. One of these type blades is seen here in an illustration posted by Libra on a concurrent thread with an ivory hilt example but not associated with the units I refer to. The very large deep bellied blade I have seen before on examples that are believed to have been from these European units with troops from Balkan regions. The ones I have seen did not have this kind of wootz blade however, but typically were European made with cyphers and heraldic motif.

Looking at Andys example here, by what can be seen photographically, the age seems somewhat in resemblance to artifacts I have seen often while travelling through desert regions here in the southwest, most of which seem to date from about 1870s to 1900. This has the appearance of an item which remained static in an old building or such surrounding in very dry heat for a very long time. There is just enough moisture to bring rust, but intermittant heat to prevent dramatic overtaking of corrosion. That would be about the limit of my forensics skill I personally think it may well be a theatrical item of those times, which though it might sound dismissive, I think these have a certain intrinsic value as period novelty items regardless.

A rough piece indeed, but still historic in its own right. ...and surely brought forward some great discussion on the pandours!!

All the best,
Jim

[Dmitry]

Let's not forget the "turquerie" balls that were fashionable with the royals and upper nobility of several Germanic States, Hungary, and perhaps indeed Austria, from the 1600s into the 1800s. The participants dressed in Turkish costumes, had their horses outfitted in Turkish style tack, dined in the lavish tents a la turque, copulated in the mock harems, and wore the weapons and accouterments either borrowed from the Turkish Chambers [as in Dresden, for example, but I'm sure other royals had kept them also], old family collections, or had some props made. This might be such an early prop, perhaps made for a servant. Or else it's an old operatic prop.
Just a wild guess...

[Andy Stevens]

Thanks for all the replies folks, we will attempt a gentle restoration- the first job being to realease the tang nut so as to turn the blade the right way round. We will post pictures if we find anything interesting. Regards Andy and karina.

[Dmitry]

Here's another yataghan-styled European hunting sword, this one bears an Italian-inscribed blade.

[Andy Stevens]

Thanks Dmitri for posting yet another fine yataghan style sword, this topic has certainly raised our interest in these unusual weapons. We are still curious regarding the hilt, as someone certainly went to a lot of trouble to make what is to our eyes a well crafted thing. Regards A & K

[Jeff D]

Hi Andy,

You might find this thread from 2006 interesting. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...hinese+hunting

Jeff

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Jeff D

Hi Andy,

You might find this thread from 2006 interesting. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...hinese+hunting

Jeff

Hi Jeff, and thanks for posting the link to this thread!! Wow, four years ago, seems like a lifetime
Some good information indeed was discussed......I still think this piece more likely 19th century and though the style on some of the earlier 'Chinese' jian style guard hunting weapons in the earlier thread is seen, this example is far more workmanlike...the blade distinctly metal stock like without fullers or working that can be seen.
It is interesting that some work was put into the yataghan style hilt, but was not applied to the other components.
Still an interesting piece though Andy there must be some interesting history behind this, even though not as far back as the pandours....the reverse mounting of the blade notwithstanding.

All best regards,
Jim