Krisses Jalak Buda

[A. G. Maisey]

Jean, the keris of which you show images are not pure keris budho, but rather of a type intermediate between keris budho and the early modern keris.

As to why they are given the classification designation of "Singosari", well, that's something that nobody can answer at this remove. But don't let it worry you, its only a classification, and might just as well be given any designation.

When we start to involve ourselves with tangguh, which you are doing with these questions, there are two major ways you can go:- accept everything as an item of faith, or reject everything as so much invention.

To be fair, there is a third way:- accept as more or less historically accurate those classifications that can be logically supported, and regard those classifications which cannot be logically supported as indicative of possibilities only.

[Jean]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Jean, the keris of which you show images are not pure keris budho, but rather of a type intermediate between keris budho and the early modern keris.

As to why they are given the classification designation of "Singosari", well, that's something that nobody can answer at this remove. But don't let it worry you, its only a classification, and might just as well be given any designation.

When we start to involve ourselves with tangguh, which you are doing with these questions, there are two major ways you can go:- accept everything as an item of faith, or reject everything as so much invention.

To be fair, there is a third way:- accept as more or less historically accurate those classifications that can be logically supported, and regard those classifications which cannot be logically supported as indicative of possibilities only.

Dear Alan,
Thank you very much for your reply which perfectly meets my expectations and reinforces my doubts. In a few lines you said it all!
My 2 pieces are typical specimens of this type of intermediate krisses, and I agree that they cannot be accurately dated, and that these pieces are probably from different periods as some of them have pamor for instance. Have you any picture of an original keris Budho to show us?
Regarding the judgement about the tangguh matter I fully agree with your cautious statement, personally I follow the intermediate (third) way and will use it in my new book.
Thank you very much again and best regards
Jean

[A. G. Maisey]

Jean, to be brutally honest, my approach to tangguh varies according to the company I am in.

If I'm in Jawa with gentlemen who are very traditional followers of Javanese culture and philosophy, I agree with everything that is said --- it is not my place to to attempt to lecture people on their own culture.

Shut up. Listen. Learn.

If I am with people who are convinced that they already know all there is to be known, I do the same thing:-

Shut up. Listen. Learn -- or perhaps be mildly amused.

If I am with gentlemen who can take a calm, balanced, and logical view of the world and all things in it, I am prepared to adopt the third way and attempt to justify my acceptance of this approach.

As to an image of a typical keris budho, I do have a number of these and I am probably prepared to provide an image. Leave it with me, I'll see what I can do.

[Jean]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Jean, to be brutally honest, my approach to tangguh varies according to the company I am in.

As to an image of a typical keris budho, I do have a number of these and I am probably prepared to provide an image. Leave it with me, I'll see what I can do.

Dear Alan,
You are a very wise man, I also try to adopt this approach but am less "Javanesed" than you so I can't help to give my careful opinion sometimes with people whom I know well ....
I am sure that all the forumites will be very interested to see the pictures of your keris Budho as this is not a common occurrence!
Thank you again and best regards
Jean

[Mick]

Jean

Here is basicly what they look like. There has been a market for reproductions of this pieces for a long time. Based on the sheath that was provided for this piece I imagine that this was assembled in the 1930's. Normally there was no pamor on the real pieces. This is a giveaway on this one.

[Jean]

Originally Posted by Mick

Jean

Here is basicly what they look like. There has been a market for reproductions of this pieces for a long time. Based on the sheath that was provided for this piece I imagine that this was assembled in the 1930's. Normally there was no pamor on the real pieces. This is a giveaway on this one.

Hello Mick,
Thanks, your piece is shorter and sturdier than mine, but it looks "processed" indeed. Some of the pieces included in the book "Keris untuk Dunia" also have pamor, but are still classified as from tangguh Singosari....
Best regards
Jean

[A. G. Maisey]

Here is an image of a genuine keris budho.

Mick's image also gives a good impression of what they look like. This example is just under 12" long from blade tip to pesi tip.

However, it is necessary to allow a reasonable degree of latitude in assessing whether a blade is genuinely a KB or not.

Erosion can alter the outline of the blade.

Some blades display quite refined features, others are basic.

Based upon my personal observations, I am not yet prepared to dismiss all apparently archaic blades that show some evidence of pamor, as forgeries, false, or creations designed to decieve. Yes, such creations do exist, but the pamor effect can be found in other forms of archaic blade that are not keris blades. Additionally, I am of the opinion that production of blades in the budho form continued well past the Early Classical Period, and probably they were still being produced into the 16th-17th centuries, a period far too early for production to occur for reason of the deception of "tourists" and collectors.

Genuinely archaic keris budho also occur in bronze.