good day

[RSWORD]

Lew,

Keep in mind that the crossguard could be European made but added to this African piece as recycled parts. Notice that the guard and ferrule are nice iron/steel while the pommel nut seems a bit more crude and brass. I suspect these steel components are salvaged or recycled parts from a European piece of sorts and utilized to enhance this African ceremonial piece.

[G. McCormack]

tricky! This does not feel African in my opinion. The quillons (esp. the treatment of the smaller, thinner one), the button on the hilt, and the treatment of the tang button all point towards a european manufacture in my mind- odd hunting trousse piece is my guess.

[David]

It doesn't feel African to me either and the iron work, engraving and other aspects of this blade are of a quality that surpasses most African work i've seen.

[Tim Simmons]

Could be that there is more African work to see?

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by RSWORD

Lew,

Keep in mind that the crossguard could be European made but added to this African piece as recycled parts. Notice that the guard and ferrule are nice iron/steel while the pommel nut seems a bit more crude and brass. I suspect these steel components are salvaged or recycled parts from a European piece of sorts and utilized to enhance this African ceremonial piece.

Extremely pertinant suggestion here by Rick, I have seen many examples of unusual weapons etc. refurbished in African context using components much in this manner, often with surprising results. I think that these 'amalgams' often strain our 'forensics' to the limit but the discussions are truly a learning experience for all.

[Tim Simmons]

Would be a shame to drop this so quickly. Alan is right some more views would be most helpful. There was a brass tack for an eye, brass tacks also seen on eastern work but is this middle eastern or Asian?

Looking closely at the engraving and I am now convinced this is not European work, most certainly not for the wealthy type who would have fancy knives?

You can see by the shadow at the bottom of the picture that this is a slim blade and I will suggest that there is no back, more or less the same thickness all along the blade? Okay for a table knife but not very grand for hunting. There are no sizes given but if your hand is on the handle you can make a fair guess as to size.

[A. G. Maisey]

Tim, when I first saw this, and before any comments were made, I had a flash of Central European --- Austrian, Hungarian, Polish.

No logical basis for this, just a feeling.

I've seen that double guard arrangement somewhere, but I can't remember where. I've been through all the books I have available, and that took me a couple of nights. The only knife I could find that had any sort of similarity to this was in the Hollander cutlery collection, and that was a French knife for cutting candy. The raised section on the back of the French knife was for taking the blows needed to drive the blade through hard candy.

When all we can see is just the outline of the knife, without knowing the geometry of the blade, its size and so on, it seems to me to be too big an ask to be able to say what it is.

I agree that the engraving does not look typically Western European, but I cannot find any similar engraving amongst the African examples I've looked at, either.

I guess a couple of years down the track somebody will be able to enlighten us all, and we'll find out that its a knife used by farmers in Central Slobovia for sectioning sides of Slobovian sausage --- or something.

Something that should be considered is the fact that it appears to have a full tang going right through the hilt and anchored at the pommel with a nut, or perhaps piened over. You do not use this construction on a knife unless it is intended to withstand some pretty heavy work. For light usage, a stub tang set in adhesive is good enough. Nope, this is designed as a serious tool. But for what, and from where?

I reckon that the engraving was done prior to heat treat, which means the engraving was done during manufacture, not after. Heat treated steel is too hard for simple manual engraving. So whoever made the thing also arranged, or did, the engraving.

[katana]

Can't help but think that with the rounded tip, the raised spine on the final half of the blade (making it more 'tip' heavy)....that this is more of a 'chopper' / cutter. I also noticed that the pommel 'nut' is very much 'off centre' It also seems that the 'bird' head has lost his 'eye'. (circular indentation....perhaps some sort of stud)

Chregu, you really need to provide the dimensions (as mentioned by others) and also whether there are any other markings.....If the ferrule is silver.....there could be hallmarks.

Regards David

.

[chregu]

hallo

many thanks for all your reply and suggestions. It's incredibly interesting to follow your diskus ions. Unfortunately, my English is not understood so well at all (must take the translation program to help).
this knife is not in my possession, it will next time look better and measured.
until then, many thanks to you.
gruss Chregu

[Jim McDougall]

Yuanzhumin, I wanted to thank you for acknowledging my suggestion on the African python, and your support of the observation...indeed very much appreciated.
This really is an intriguing dilemma in discussing this item, and I have been going through notes and resources at hand trying to locate that stylized geometric on the blade.
I am posting a page from an important article on the kaskara, "Kaskara from Northern Darfur, Sudan", by Graham Reed (JAAS, Vol.XII, #3, March, 1987) and in plate LV (a) you will see a remarkably similar pattern, and in (d) you will see a snake, which presumably would be a python.

In the article, the author notes that in these regions the python is termed 'assala', and this would likely be the species 'python sebae' which is found widely across sub-Saharan Africa.

It would seem the linear diamond pattern may suggest the pattern in the skin of the snake. While this motif is clearly far from West Africa in this case, it is important to remember the trade routes that profusely crisscrossed African regions, and which diffused all manner of material culture and thought.
The snake, particularly the python, was prominant in animist folk religion and superstition in Africa, and in Dahomey (now Benin) in West Africa the serpent in thier mythology was known as 'Dan'. In its supernatural perspective, this serpent (typically considered a python) supported all on its many coils.

Having considered the nature of these markings, and returning to the apparant features of this knife, I have become compelled to agree with the distinctly European feel for its elements. While it is agreed that African artisans were extremely skilled in producing impressive metalwork, it does not seem that they followed inherent European features in the detail seen here.
For example, the beaded section in the upper guard center, and the inscribed bands in the ferrule. I should point out that these parallel crossguards it seems are found on a number of hirschfangers often of 18th century, most often German and French. The redundant guard feature is also something that occurs in Spanish colonial weapons of the early 19th century.

The oval stud in the wood grip, again very much corresponding to European hunting weapons. The capstan, distinctly European.

With that, it is important to note that while African artisans were certainly adept at producing outstanding work, the 19th century had many regions in Africa increasingly colonized, and certainly there were European armourers and smiths present in some degree. The ultra stlylized zoomorphic head in the pommel of this item as I mentioned earlier, somewhat recalls that seen on the flyssa. The amalgam of components seen here reflect cross cultural influences which were likely the result of trade, colonization and probably diplomatic matters.

Perhaps this was indeed in a European style trousse fashioned as a gift or presentation to a West African chief or dignitary, and inscribed with this motif to recognize thier symbolism. In further note, the inscribed motif at the forte seems very much European in application.

[Rick]

My one observation is that the workmanship seems a bit crude for European manufacture .

Look at the engraved rings on the ferrule; a European smith (in the era we're speaking of) would probably have not let that ferrule out the shop door .

The Apprentice who did the work might have been dismissed also .

So I'd guess there is not much of European manufacture here; maybe the button, tack and lower crossguard .

Africa gets my vote for now ..

Best,
Rick