Where is this sheat from?

[Moshah]

I believe the sheath belongs to tajong / coteng family, from northern Malaysia or southern Thai.

If any of you happen to be in possession of "Spirit of Wood" by Noor, Farish A., turn to page 169 where there are schematic drawing of the sheath of keris tajong. According to the diagram, the carving on crosspiece representing "the third eye of Shiva", the hindu God.

Also, referring to Sajen's post #3 (the mirrored picture), below the right crosspiece is a flat panel called "bahu" (shoulder), which I've only seen in coteng sampir so far. This "bahu" feature is identical to the attached picture of a coteng below, albeit Sajen's was more pronounced.

Therefore I strongly suspect that Sajen has found himself a coteng sheath. And it happen to be a one-piece-construction coteng sheath too (no cross section that i can see from the pic).

I personally think this is a great find, no matter of what keris u might have inside. Cotengs are hard to come by, so it is the right thing not to miss it!

p/s - what do you all meant by "composite keris"?

[Gustav]

I also have seen images where similar sheaths with North-coast Java and Madura hilts are depicted. This sheath form probably have a resemblance with early ladrang forms from Java.

If this sheath is North-coastal, is it rather atypical becouse of no central ridge, or is there a pendok intended? Could we expect such sheath form from Madura?

I am curios how this keris fits the sheath and to see the blade itself. It could be probably not that poor at all when cleaned.

[Sajen]

Thank you all for comment. So we have two opinions from where this sheat comes from, Cirebon or a Coteng from northern Peninsula. This two options have been in my mind whereas I would prefer the second!

Would be interesting what our members from Singapore think about.

[Amuk Murugul]

Hullo everybody!


Very interesting discussion.
One mustn't forget that there was a lot of 'cross-pollination' in the archipelago. Looking at it, my feeling is that it could be from anywhere within the Lampoeng-Pariaman-western Java-Pasisir-Madoera area.

If one looks hard enough, one can find one-piece-construction sheaths, even from the Cirebon area. As for the 'shoulder', it's not THAT rare in Cirebon or Madoera pieces (note that in typical Palembang sheaths, the shoulder has become stylised). All depends on the philosophy/motivation of the maranggi/carver. Should one be fortunate enough to have access to REAL collections.... enough said!

However, my strongest feeling is for either Cirebon or Banten, leaning more towards the former (only because of its 'coarseness'). Could be TOTALLY WRONG, though!

Best,

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Amuk Murugul

Hullo everybody!


Very interesting discussion.
One mustn't forget that there was a lot of 'cross-pollination' in the archipelago. Looking at it, my feeling is that it could be from anywhere within the Lampoeng-Pariaman-western Java-Pasisir-Madoera area.

If one looks hard enough, one can find one-piece-construction sheaths, even from the Cirebon area. As for the 'shoulder', it's not THAT rare in Cirebon or Madoera pieces (note that in typical Palembang sheaths, the shoulder has become stylised). All depends on the philosophy/motivation of the maranggi/carver. Should one be fortunate enough to have access to REAL collections.... enough said!

However, my strongest feeling is for either Cirebon or Banten, leaning more towards the former (only because of its 'coarseness'). Could be TOTALLY WRONG, though!

Best,

Thank you for comment! Agree that you can find iras sheats from Cirebon (see picture). And agree also that it is sometimes very hard to decree the origin of a sheat because the "cross-pollination" in the archipelago special by early forms.

Detlef

[Sajen]

Have you noted the middle rib in up from the sheat in the third picture in #1?
Maybe this will be helpful.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Gustav

. It could be probably not that poor at all when cleaned.

Hope so!

[Moshah]

That middle rib you called, is the "caping" or point, as explained in Spirit of Wood. And you also can see how identical this "caping" as to the coteng's.

It also appears in some aged keris tajong sheath.

The build shape is identical to the cirebonese sample that Sajen had shown, no doubt about it. However the "caping", "shoulder" and the "third eye of Shiva" is all the characteristic of a pattani's origin.

Cross pollination is obviously the reason why it is so identical to both region's design. Let's not forget the empus from pattani also originated from Java / south sumatra.

Of course I might be wrong too. Let's learn from each other

[PenangsangII]

Cirebon or Siam?

This thread reaffirm my personal belief that keris culture in Siam (Pattani, Songkhla, Singgora, Naratiwat etc...) could have been brought from Jawa, particularly Padjajaran and Cirebon.....

[BluErf]

My 1st impression was that this was a coteng sheath, but after closer inspection, I tend to agree with Alan that this is probably Cirebon/N Coast Jawa. The aesthetics are clearly different. In S. Thailand and N. Malaya where the coteng tajong comes from, the aesthetics is one of 'lanky' proportions. This sheath here is too 'fat', especially at the part where the batang joins to the sampir. Also, the sampir of a coteng tend to have 'boxier' feel, not straight rectangular, but having a deeper trough. Yes, seeing all thses sheaths and the Raja Mala hilt makes one want to think of the origin of the tajong and coteng as N Coast of Jawa.

[Moshah]

Originally Posted by PenangsangII

Cirebon or Siam?

This thread reaffirm my personal belief that keris culture in Siam (Pattani, Songkhla, Singgora, Naratiwat etc...) could have been brought from Jawa, particularly Padjajaran and Cirebon.....

Salams,

I personally think you are right about that belief. Can see the traces of java influences in peninsular keris culture. As for here, the cirebonese wronko is also hold some resemblances to coteng's sampir.

By looking at the picture, the "caping" bears more percentage of similarities to the coteng sheath. Maybe a clearer picture from Sajen's crosspiece could be placed next to the coteng pix and to the cirebon iras example, where we can see clearly the similarities and differences, spot on.

The carving on the crosspiece, IMHO tries to emulate the "third eye of shiva". However, I am not sure whether Cirebonese sampir could have this kind of carving. Or perhaps the carving comes later, for some purposes. There are possibilities.

[Gustav]

In case of "composite" keris: the strangest photo ever I have seen, taken before 1920 probably in Aceh. Mendak-Selut are very close to ones on pompous Gowa keris (with hilts depicting Bhima(?) in lalitasana), hilts are looking like Banjarmasin. I remember to have seen a specimen very much like the left side sheath with a Madura hilt.
It seems, the left side keris have seen some practical use .Pesi is the week point and is getting bent easily (according to english sailor tales about adventures in Singapore )

[Gustav]

This sheath question is, of course, nothing new (something really worth to read: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...=coteng+sheath). As every question, it is a possibility to show opinions, wishes and standfastness in holding and proclaiming opinions.

"The build shape is identical to the cirebonese sample that Sajen had shown, no doubt about it. However the "caping", "shoulder" and the "third eye of Shiva" is all the characteristic of a pattani's origin."

Dear Moshah,

however, in this case I probably have something to learn. At first, I wasn't aware, this second example of Sajen is a typical Cirebon sheath. If so, could you enlighten me, what are the typical characteristics of a Cirebonese sheath?

What you call "caping", "shoulder" and "the third eye of Shiva" - I really wouldn't know these are characteristics found only on a sheath from Pattani. It seems, I have greatly undervalued the importance of this region in keris culture till now.

[Sajen]

Hello Gustav,

look this both threads respective sheaths from Cirebon:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...hlight=cirebon

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...hlight=cirebon

Regards,

Detlef

[Moshah]

Originally Posted by Gustav

Dear Moshah,

however, in this case I probably have something to learn. At first, I wasn't aware, this second example of Sajen is a typical Cirebon sheath. If so, could you enlighten me, what are the typical characteristics of a Cirebonese sheath?

What you call "caping", "shoulder" and "the third eye of Shiva" - I really wouldn't know these are characteristics found only on a sheath from Pattani. It seems, I have greatly undervalued the importance of this region in keris culture till now.

Hi Gustav,

I'm sorry I could not enlighten u about Cirebonese sheath. I never had one, nor I have had one in my hand before. I put forth the differences simply by comparing the sample pictures that Sajen has uploaded, and few others I can see from the links.

From my untrained eyes, you can see that all the cirebonese crosspieces given as example here (either in links given or Sajen's pix), there are something identical at each of the left side of the crosspieces. Sorry I don't know the name of this features, but the feature that I am referring to looks like a cheek line at the left side of the cirebonese crosspiece, where both my coteng and Sajen's new sheath do not possess.

About the features (caping, shoulder & third eye of Shiva), I hope Sajen can scan & upload the Spirit of Wood pg 169, so that we all can see what I mean here.

Also I attach this picture taken from Artzi's sold item page, a coteng, which bear some similarities to Sajen's new sheath. Not 100% identical, right? I would say that the overall shape of Sajen's new sheath looks like it have Cirebonese influences while the features are of Coteng's.

I would also love to learn more about Cirebonese sheath, as much as I would love to own one!

[Gustav]

Moshah,

thank you very much for the explanation.

Do you call "cheek line" feature visible also here? : http://keris.fotopic.net/p56874076.html

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Moshah

About the features (caping, shoulder & third eye of Shiva), I hope Sajen can scan & upload the Spirit of Wood pg 169, so that we all can see what I mean here.

I have taken a picture and I think that it is clear enough.