Where is this sheat from?

[A. G. Maisey]

Not all keris have always been dressed according to the high standards of late 19th century, through to 21st century connoisseurs.

I have seen a great many keris from various areas that do not follow what current collectors consider to be correct, in that blades are a poor fit in wrongkos, alignment of hilt to wrongko is poor, and in general, the keris have simply been not very neat. However, these keris I have in mind have not been what we think of when we talk of composites, rather, they have been keris that were collected in SE Asia pre-WWII and in some cases, have been genuine old keris held by families in Jawa.

In times past - and for that matter, today also, not every blade is going to have its own individually bespoke wrongko crafted for it. If a near enough fit can be achieved by use of a used wrongko, that is often good enough. Not all people in Jawa now, or in the past, could afford to pay a maker to produce the perfect wrongko for a keris, they would use wrongkos in various stages of completion bought ready made from the market, and finish the fitting themselves.

We're used to see perfection as the benchmark, but in reality, this is a pretty recent phenomenon. People in the past living in rural villages far removed from centers of power did the best they could with what they could get, and this was often very far from perfect.

We should not label a keris as "composite", just because it falls short of perfection in fit and finish.

In respect of this wrongko, I'm inclined to think it might be an old North Coast Jawa one. I have a similar one that has a probably reliable provenance of 19th century Cirebon area.

[Marcokeris]

Also i think the sarong comes from Cirebon area.

[Moshah]

I believe the sheath belongs to tajong / coteng family, from northern Malaysia or southern Thai.

If any of you happen to be in possession of "Spirit of Wood" by Noor, Farish A., turn to page 169 where there are schematic drawing of the sheath of keris tajong. According to the diagram, the carving on crosspiece representing "the third eye of Shiva", the hindu God.

Also, referring to Sajen's post #3 (the mirrored picture), below the right crosspiece is a flat panel called "bahu" (shoulder), which I've only seen in coteng sampir so far. This "bahu" feature is identical to the attached picture of a coteng below, albeit Sajen's was more pronounced.

Therefore I strongly suspect that Sajen has found himself a coteng sheath. And it happen to be a one-piece-construction coteng sheath too (no cross section that i can see from the pic).

I personally think this is a great find, no matter of what keris u might have inside. Cotengs are hard to come by, so it is the right thing not to miss it!

p/s - what do you all meant by "composite keris"?

[Gustav]

I also have seen images where similar sheaths with North-coast Java and Madura hilts are depicted. This sheath form probably have a resemblance with early ladrang forms from Java.

If this sheath is North-coastal, is it rather atypical becouse of no central ridge, or is there a pendok intended? Could we expect such sheath form from Madura?

I am curios how this keris fits the sheath and to see the blade itself. It could be probably not that poor at all when cleaned.

[Sajen]

Thank you all for comment. So we have two opinions from where this sheat comes from, Cirebon or a Coteng from northern Peninsula. This two options have been in my mind whereas I would prefer the second!

Would be interesting what our members from Singapore think about.

[Amuk Murugul]

Hullo everybody!


Very interesting discussion.
One mustn't forget that there was a lot of 'cross-pollination' in the archipelago. Looking at it, my feeling is that it could be from anywhere within the Lampoeng-Pariaman-western Java-Pasisir-Madoera area.

If one looks hard enough, one can find one-piece-construction sheaths, even from the Cirebon area. As for the 'shoulder', it's not THAT rare in Cirebon or Madoera pieces (note that in typical Palembang sheaths, the shoulder has become stylised). All depends on the philosophy/motivation of the maranggi/carver. Should one be fortunate enough to have access to REAL collections.... enough said!

However, my strongest feeling is for either Cirebon or Banten, leaning more towards the former (only because of its 'coarseness'). Could be TOTALLY WRONG, though!

Best,

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Amuk Murugul

Hullo everybody!


Very interesting discussion.
One mustn't forget that there was a lot of 'cross-pollination' in the archipelago. Looking at it, my feeling is that it could be from anywhere within the Lampoeng-Pariaman-western Java-Pasisir-Madoera area.

If one looks hard enough, one can find one-piece-construction sheaths, even from the Cirebon area. As for the 'shoulder', it's not THAT rare in Cirebon or Madoera pieces (note that in typical Palembang sheaths, the shoulder has become stylised). All depends on the philosophy/motivation of the maranggi/carver. Should one be fortunate enough to have access to REAL collections.... enough said!

However, my strongest feeling is for either Cirebon or Banten, leaning more towards the former (only because of its 'coarseness'). Could be TOTALLY WRONG, though!

Best,

Thank you for comment! Agree that you can find iras sheats from Cirebon (see picture). And agree also that it is sometimes very hard to decree the origin of a sheat because the "cross-pollination" in the archipelago special by early forms.

Detlef

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Gustav

. It could be probably not that poor at all when cleaned.

Hope so!

[Moshah]

That middle rib you called, is the "caping" or point, as explained in Spirit of Wood. And you also can see how identical this "caping" as to the coteng's.

It also appears in some aged keris tajong sheath.

The build shape is identical to the cirebonese sample that Sajen had shown, no doubt about it. However the "caping", "shoulder" and the "third eye of Shiva" is all the characteristic of a pattani's origin.

Cross pollination is obviously the reason why it is so identical to both region's design. Let's not forget the empus from pattani also originated from Java / south sumatra.

Of course I might be wrong too. Let's learn from each other

[PenangsangII]

Cirebon or Siam?

This thread reaffirm my personal belief that keris culture in Siam (Pattani, Songkhla, Singgora, Naratiwat etc...) could have been brought from Jawa, particularly Padjajaran and Cirebon.....

[Gustav]

This sheath question is, of course, nothing new (something really worth to read: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...=coteng+sheath). As every question, it is a possibility to show opinions, wishes and standfastness in holding and proclaiming opinions.

"The build shape is identical to the cirebonese sample that Sajen had shown, no doubt about it. However the "caping", "shoulder" and the "third eye of Shiva" is all the characteristic of a pattani's origin."

Dear Moshah,

however, in this case I probably have something to learn. At first, I wasn't aware, this second example of Sajen is a typical Cirebon sheath. If so, could you enlighten me, what are the typical characteristics of a Cirebonese sheath?

What you call "caping", "shoulder" and "the third eye of Shiva" - I really wouldn't know these are characteristics found only on a sheath from Pattani. It seems, I have greatly undervalued the importance of this region in keris culture till now.