Please help me choose wood for a staff

FilAmfighter1 · 11th May 2010, 04:11 PM

I would not recomend any of those woods you have listed for constant training, I would use rattan for you sticks and staffs. Make sure you fire harden and use an natural oil finish. With Modifed tapideo they use coffee wood sticks for their stick practice. You will have better luck and less broken high cost hard wood staffs and sticks.

Nathaniel · 11th May 2010, 06:54 PM

what about using a laminate?

fearn · 12th May 2010, 04:09 AM

Laminates...not so much. They're likely to split along the layers under repeated shocks, because each layer is going to warp differently, depending on where in the stick they are.

Nathaniel · 12th May 2010, 04:47 AM

Fern, you are probably right.

It is interesting to note after I posed the question over a laminate, I see #6 on the wood impact strength graph is a laminated rosewood composite.

The thought just came to me because I remember 3 or so years ago having a conversation with a Aikido instructor (http://forsythaikido.com/portal/) whose father in law was a wood worker...and made weapons for him and Laminate where among them...and I seem to remember him saying the laminate performed well.

Modern adhesives I know are impressive. But I suppose if laminates where that good...then more people would be using it.

Jason Anstey · 12th May 2010, 08:25 AM

Shiro Kashi (Japanese White Oak) is great, I have been using the same 24mm x 128cm pole for full impact wood and against wood for over ten years now. Some light oil is all that is needed for longevity. The long grain and impact resistance make this a really good choice. It is reasonably flexible as well.

The All Japan Kendo federation have made a ruling that this is the ONLY type of wood they will allow for bokken (wooded sword) and Jo (wooden staff) in Jodo competitions due to safety.

THicker poles are available as well, generally in the form of a Bo.

They wood is relatively easy to come by and I know that there is a supplier in Canada that can custom make stuff or supply you with the blanks.

Search SDK Supplies

As others have mentioned hickory is also very good - depending on the grade selected.

fearn · 12th May 2010, 04:05 PM

Back when I was doing capoeira, one of the guys made a couple of berimbaus (musical bows) by hand-laminating the wood staves. They were gorgeous things, and they worked well under tension. But one did snap spectacularly. The glue failed, and the whole thing split.

The problem with a laminated staff is that its strength depends more on your skill in laminating. And unlike the berimbau above, the forces warping a fighting staff are going to be coming from all over the place, not just one direction.

Conversely, if you're good a gluing, it's probably a bit easier to get thin strips that are straight grained, so if all you can find is crap staves, it is an option.

Best,

F

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nathaniel

Fern, you are probably right.

It is interesting to note after I posed the question over a laminate, I see #6 on the wood impact strength graph is a laminated rosewood composite.

The thought just came to me because I remember 3 or so years ago having a conversation with a Aikido instructor (http://forsythaikido.com/portal/) whose father in law was a wood worker...and made weapons for him and Laminate where among them...and I seem to remember him saying the laminate performed well.

Modern adhesives I know are impressive. But I suppose if laminates where that good...then more people would be using it.

Nathaniel · 13th May 2010, 06:58 PM

Just thought it would be interesting to ask a someone who is in the profession of making wooden weapons. This is the response I got below:

Hello Nathaniel,

Thank you for the email. If constructed properly, laminated wood is much stronger than a solid piece of wood. The lumber must be high quality, the boards must be planed to have exceptionally smooth surfaces, the glue must be high grade, and after gluing the boards must be tightly clamped together. If prepared this way, the glue joint will be much stronger than the wood itself. If not, then the glue joint will be weak, so it all depends on how knowledgeable and skilled the craftsman is. Martial arts weaponry prepared this way is more expensive because of the extra time involved, which is probably why many makers prefer to make solid wood weapons. If a staff is properly laminated, the quality is far superior. (woods with a high oil content are an exception to this rule as the natural oils in the wood prevent the boards from adhering completely)

For a long pole weapon, the crossing grain structure of the laminated boards will not only provide a much stronger weapon, but will also help to prevent warping. I make wing chun long poles that are 8' to 9' long. I've made them out of hickory, jatoba and purple heart with 2 laminated boards. This results in very little warp, if any, and the poles are very strong. I can guarantee if I made them with a solid piece of wood, even if it was quarter sawn lumber, a pole 8' to 9' long would warp every time.

Hickory is exceptionally durable for wooden weapons that are going to be used for contact applications. I've been making wooden weapons for over 11 years and hickory holds up consistently the best. There are harder woods such as purple heart, but because it is harder it is also more brittle and will tend to splinter and shred more over time. Remember the harder a wood is, the more brittle it is going to be. Woods that have the best combination of weight/density, hardness, flexibility (not whippy, but not too stiff), straight grain structure, and devoid of knots and other imperfections, are elements that will make the highest quality martial arts practice weapons. I would place hickory at the top of the list. White oak is also very good. Osage orange is an excellent choice but it is very difficult to find enough osage in large enough pieces with very straight grain structure, and no knots. If you live in an area where there is abundant osage and you want to make your own weapons, then that would be an excellent option!

Having said all of that, any wooden weapon, no matter how it is made or what wood is used, is subject to splintering, denting or breaking if it is improperly used or abused. Even the strongest steel swords will break if used improperly. The best advise I can give is to purchase your weapons wisely and train wisely as well :-) Hope that helps!

Best regards,
Carina Cirrincione
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Raven Studios
www.little-raven.com

Nathaniel · 13th May 2010, 07:01 PM

Carina also had this to say in her email where I asked permission to quote her:

"There are many variables involved when trying to research the best woods and the best construction process for making various wooden weapons. one wood may be good for one weapon but not another and the same with the construction process. Even the mechanical properties of one species of wood can vary quite a bit from tree to tree and board to board, so unfortunately this is not an exact science."

Thanks to Carina for allowing me to quote her so as to share her knowledge & experience with others here on the forum.

11th May 2010, 04:11 PM	#1
FilAmfighter1 Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Torrance Posts: 49	Staff & stick wood for contact I would not recomend any of those woods you have listed for constant training, I would use rattan for you sticks and staffs. Make sure you fire harden and use an natural oil finish. With Modifed tapideo they use coffee wood sticks for their stick practice. You will have better luck and less broken high cost hard wood staffs and sticks.

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11th May 2010, 06:54 PM	#2
Nathaniel Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 865	what about using a laminate?

12th May 2010, 04:09 AM	#3
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Laminates...not so much. They're likely to split along the layers under repeated shocks, because each layer is going to warp differently, depending on where in the stick they are.

12th May 2010, 04:47 AM	#4
Nathaniel Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 865	Fern, you are probably right. It is interesting to note after I posed the question over a laminate, I see #6 on the wood impact strength graph is a laminated rosewood composite. The thought just came to me because I remember 3 or so years ago having a conversation with a Aikido instructor (http://forsythaikido.com/portal/) whose father in law was a wood worker...and made weapons for him and Laminate where among them...and I seem to remember him saying the laminate performed well. Modern adhesives I know are impressive. But I suppose if laminates where that good...then more people would be using it.

12th May 2010, 08:25 AM	#5
Jason Anstey Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 102	Shiro Kashi (Japanese White Oak) is great, I have been using the same 24mm x 128cm pole for full impact wood and against wood for over ten years now. Some light oil is all that is needed for longevity. The long grain and impact resistance make this a really good choice. It is reasonably flexible as well. The All Japan Kendo federation have made a ruling that this is the ONLY type of wood they will allow for bokken (wooded sword) and Jo (wooden staff) in Jodo competitions due to safety. THicker poles are available as well, generally in the form of a Bo. They wood is relatively easy to come by and I know that there is a supplier in Canada that can custom make stuff or supply you with the blanks. Search SDK Supplies As others have mentioned hickory is also very good - depending on the grade selected.

13th May 2010, 06:58 PM	#7
Nathaniel Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 865	Just thought it would be interesting to ask a someone who is in the profession of making wooden weapons. This is the response I got below: Hello Nathaniel, Thank you for the email. If constructed properly, laminated wood is much stronger than a solid piece of wood. The lumber must be high quality, the boards must be planed to have exceptionally smooth surfaces, the glue must be high grade, and after gluing the boards must be tightly clamped together. If prepared this way, the glue joint will be much stronger than the wood itself. If not, then the glue joint will be weak, so it all depends on how knowledgeable and skilled the craftsman is. Martial arts weaponry prepared this way is more expensive because of the extra time involved, which is probably why many makers prefer to make solid wood weapons. If a staff is properly laminated, the quality is far superior. (woods with a high oil content are an exception to this rule as the natural oils in the wood prevent the boards from adhering completely) For a long pole weapon, the crossing grain structure of the laminated boards will not only provide a much stronger weapon, but will also help to prevent warping. I make wing chun long poles that are 8' to 9' long. I've made them out of hickory, jatoba and purple heart with 2 laminated boards. This results in very little warp, if any, and the poles are very strong. I can guarantee if I made them with a solid piece of wood, even if it was quarter sawn lumber, a pole 8' to 9' long would warp every time. Hickory is exceptionally durable for wooden weapons that are going to be used for contact applications. I've been making wooden weapons for over 11 years and hickory holds up consistently the best. There are harder woods such as purple heart, but because it is harder it is also more brittle and will tend to splinter and shred more over time. Remember the harder a wood is, the more brittle it is going to be. Woods that have the best combination of weight/density, hardness, flexibility (not whippy, but not too stiff), straight grain structure, and devoid of knots and other imperfections, are elements that will make the highest quality martial arts practice weapons. I would place hickory at the top of the list. White oak is also very good. Osage orange is an excellent choice but it is very difficult to find enough osage in large enough pieces with very straight grain structure, and no knots. If you live in an area where there is abundant osage and you want to make your own weapons, then that would be an excellent option! Having said all of that, any wooden weapon, no matter how it is made or what wood is used, is subject to splintering, denting or breaking if it is improperly used or abused. Even the strongest steel swords will break if used improperly. The best advise I can give is to purchase your weapons wisely and train wisely as well :-) Hope that helps! Best regards, Carina Cirrincione ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Raven Studios www.little-raven.com

13th May 2010, 07:01 PM	#8
Nathaniel Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 865	Carina also had this to say in her email where I asked permission to quote her: "There are many variables involved when trying to research the best woods and the best construction process for making various wooden weapons. one wood may be good for one weapon but not another and the same with the construction process. Even the mechanical properties of one species of wood can vary quite a bit from tree to tree and board to board, so unfortunately this is not an exact science." Thanks to Carina for allowing me to quote her so as to share her knowledge & experience with others here on the forum.