Dapur Carita?

[ganjawulung]

Originally Posted by ganjawulung

...(In Kraton Solo now, at least such person as Pak Ngabei Sukat -- the Pengageng Reksa Pusaka -- the one who take care of the kraton pusakas -- is one of them...

The gentleman I meant is Raden Ngabei Sukatno Purwosusastro...

[A. G. Maisey]

Yes Pak Ganja, you are without any doubt absolutely correct:- nobody can be acknowledged as infallible in matters of dhapur.

Why is it so?

The names of the various dhapurs are rooted in the past.

What has been driven home to me again, and again, and again over the years by a number of people, is that keris art is Karaton art, thus only a Karaton has the right and the obligation to bestow a name for a dhapur, or a pamor, upon a keris. Similarly, only a Karaton can determine if a keris is legitimate in its interpretations, or not.

It follows that within the area where a Karaton is paramount, only those keris which fall within the guidelines accepted by that Karaton can be accepted as legitimate representations of the Karaton's art.

However, where we move to an area where a different Karaton is paramount, the parameters may change.

Then, if we move into an area where there is no active influence of any karaton, how do we determine what is correct and what is not correct?

For this reason, I believe that if ever we wish to involve ourselves in this most extreme of all Name Games, which is the naming of the dhapur and pamor of a keris, we must at all times quote the pakem or reference that we are using as our guide.

To simply give an opinion is less than useless, no matter who gives that opinion, because no person now living can over-rule the parameters that have been previously set by a Ruler, except the current Ruler, and if the source of the opinion is not based in a karaton's guidelines, then it is a very arrogant person indeed who is prepared to give an opinion without either quoting his reference, or providing an argument to support the opinion.

Now, this is not to say, that a knowledgeable individual, or a group of individuals , are prohibited from accepting some keris form that varies from the parameters set by a karaton, however, if we accept the opinion of that individual, or group of individuals, equally we must quote our source if we determine to follow that opinion.

An unsupported opinion, or an uninformed opinion, is in matters of dhapur and pamor, something that should be looked at very critically.

Why?

Because in these matters everything is already graven in stone.

However, let us pursue this line of thought just a little further.

Pak Ganja has written:-

"---Is it important, to know keris dhapur names? (More than 70 names of keris dhapurs). Yes, of course.---"

But why is it important?

Why exactly do we need to know these names?

It may facilitate discussion between people who hold equal levels of knowledge, but does this name of pamor, or dhapur, or any other name attached to the description of a keris, further our knowledge in even the slightest degree in respect of the nature of the keris?

It can be enormously impressive for somebody to pick up a blade, glance at it for a few moments, and then pronounce the dhapur, pamor, tangguh, and name of the maker. Impressive!!!

But what does this demonstrate except that that person has a lot of experience and a very good memory?

Remember Mary Poppins?

She had a good memory.

She could remember a wonderful word:-

Supercalifragilisticexpialidocious

Impressive!!!

But does that word have any meaning?

And if it does , did our little Mary know it?

Or was it just a very impressive word that sounded extremely impressive to people who equally knew as little of its meaning as did sweet Mary?

A word that lacks meaning is no more more than a sound.

The purpose of words is to transfer a thought that is in one mind into other minds. If a word can only be used to convey a picture of something, its meaning is limited to the picture it conveys, it tells nothing of the nature of the object that it has conjured in the mind of the hearer.

The keris is an icon that encapsulates the soul of a people, and regretably that soul has at the present moment in time suffered so much loss , addition and alteration that it is probable we shall never understand its original nature.

All we are left with is a shadow.

[ganjawulung]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

...What has been driven home to me again, and again, and again over the years by a number of people, is that keris art is Karaton art, thus only a Karaton has the right and the obligation to bestow a name for a dhapur, or a pamor, upon a keris. Similarly, only a Karaton can determine if a keris is legitimate in its interpretations, or not.

It follows that within the area where a Karaton is paramount, only those keris which fall within the guidelines accepted by that Karaton can be accepted as legitimate representations of the Karaton's art.

However, where we move to an area where a different Karaton is paramount, the parameters may change.

Then, if we move into an area where there is no active influence of any karaton, how do we determine what is correct and what is not correct?

For this reason, I believe that if ever we wish to involve ourselves in this most extreme of all Name Games, which is the naming of the dhapur and pamor of a keris, we must at all times quote the pakem or reference that we are using as our guide..

To simply give an opinion is less than useless, no matter who gives that opinion, because no person now living can over-rule the parameters that have been previously set by a Ruler, except the current Ruler, and if the source of the opinion is not based in a karaton's guidelines, then it is a very arrogant person indeed who is prepared to give an opinion without either quoting his reference, or providing an argument to support the opinion..


Now, this is not to say, that a knowledgeable individual, or a group of individuals , are prohibited from accepting some keris form that varies from the parameters set by a karaton, however, if we accept the opinion of that individual, or group of individuals, equally we must quote our source if we determine to follow that opinion.

An unsupported opinion, or an uninformed opinion, is in matters of dhapur and pamor, something that should be looked at very critically.

Dear Alan,
First of all, I must try to read your post carefully, as usual, because English is not my native language. Everytime I must grasp word by word your post first, then understand it, and respond it as I could. It takes a lot of time and effort to respond -- especially on such serious questions as yours... So, again I apologize if I misunderstood your question. Or made a hard feeling of you, or who ever in this forum.

On this matter on "keris art" and "keris pakem", yes, I think we all agree on this. But if we "must at all times quote the pakem or reference that we are using as our guides", then we encounter big difficulties. Which pakem? Is it enough if I said this is "kraton pakem" without referring of certain sources, certain kraton book, certain time or period of kraton? IMHO, from time to time there were some different pakem in one kraton. And beside that, Am I deserved to say, that "this is the kraton pakem" although I'm an outsider of the kraton circle? I don't think I dare to say it. I don't dare, and not deserved to say so and of course I have no authority to say so. (IMHO, this is not the first time, a discussion on "keris art" and "keris pakem" in this forum).

(Everytime I join discussion in this forum, I am always thinking that I am an ordinary member. I am not thinking as a more knowledgeable than others. So if I have an opinion, this opinion is just an ordinary opinion of an ordinary member. Not an expert's opinion. Just sharing, as a javanese member, telling other people in other world of what I know as an ordinary javanese, what I know daily, or I hear daily in Java.)

I apologize, if I can not answer exactly what you really meant to ask me...

GANJAWULUNG

[A. G. Maisey]

Pak Ganja, I apologise for making life difficult for you, and perhaps for some others as well. I know just how very difficult it can be to get to the core of a matter when we are forced to address that matter in a language other than our own. Personally, I consider that you handle the English language extremely well indeed, and I freely admit, some of the concepts I was skirting around in last night's post might be beyond the grasp of many native English speakers. It was a long post, and I was on my hobby-horse and enjoying the ride.

I'll try to simplify.

Opinion:-

anybody can have an opinion

but everybody's opinion is not equal

there is the informed opinion, and there is the uniformed opinion

in any matter of weight only a fool will give an opinion and not wish for his opinion to receive respect

if we wish our opinion to be treated with respect we need to provide evidence or argument that our opinion is worthy of respect

when we are dealing with the keris, we can adopt at least two varying positions:- we can adopt the "social" position, where we make noises and give opinions simply to engage in conversation; opinions given whilst in this mode need not be taken too seriously and rejection need not cause offence

or, we can adopt the "serious" position, and when we do this we do need to provide evidence or argument to validate the opinion we give

with reference to the keris, this is relatively easy to do, because a number guidebooks and documents set forth the parameters by which we shall classify a keris

where such a guidebook or document has had the approval of a ruler, then the only variation that is permissable within the area where the dictates of that ruler are considered to be paramount, is a variation that has the approval of the current ruler of that area.

However,

where any group of people is not under the influence of any Ruler, that group of people may opt to classify a keris according to their own parameters, but we need to be aware that such system of classification will probably lack the bonds to tradition that adoption of a Karaton authorised system of classification virtually gaurantees.

In light of the above, I believe it should be obvious that any opinion given whilst in the "serious" mode of keris discussion must be accompanied by evidence or argument to support the opinion.


Value of dhapur classification:-

dhapur names are a system of classification

however, although those names can be understood, and do have a superficial meaning, they fail to convey any sense

the philosophical meanings that are currently attached to many dhapur names are probably no more than a couple of hundred years old, in most cases, and have more to do with Javanese philosophy than with the origins of the keris as a social icon --- however, this is essentially a different subject and need not be addressed here.

any classification system only has value as a device to sort things into groups :- it does not imply any knowledge of the content of that which is classified, it only verifies knowledge of the system by which one classifies.As an example, a clerk in an inwards mail facilty can read a letter, or an email, and he can classify it according to its content and direct it to the person in his organisation who can deal with the matters therein. But that clerk knows nothing of those matters that need to be dealt with.

it is exactly the same when we classify a keris according to dhapur or pamor or tangguh or whatever:- we understand the classificatory system, but we fail to understand the keris that we have classified.

Because of this I hold the position that knowledge of the classifcatory systems used in dealing with the keris is knowledge of a very minor degree.

[ganjawulung]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Pak Ganja, I apologise for making life difficult for you, and perhaps for some others as well. I know just how very difficult it can be to get to the core of a matter when we are forced to address that matter in a language other than our own. Personally, I consider that you handle the English language extremely well indeed, and I freely admit, some of the concepts I was skirting around in last night's post might be beyond the grasp of many native English speakers. It was a long post, and I was on my hobby-horse and enjoying the ride..

Language problem is one thing, and cultural barrier is another thing. Sometimes I encounter a strange situation, everytime I read keris books -- for instance -- which were published abroad, not in Indonesia. Or read keris forum such this. Really I must change my mindset, not as a javanese again, but as a global citizen which has a borderless culture. Global culture... And sometimes, not javanese culture anymore although we talk about javanese keris culture...

I can not describe furthermore on this, because of my limited ability to express exactly what I feel and think -- in English. In our javanese circle, if we want to be serious to "learn" the spirit of keris, then it is good too if we then learn from "tembang" (traditional recited poetry), the culture of keris. There are so many things about keris world, that were expressed in "tembang" literature in the past, that we can still recite until now. But of course, we must major reciting "tembang" first (as did the fantastic American researcher, Mrs Nancy Florida. You knew her already, and of course her desertation and book on certain kraton culture in Kraton Solo, "Writing the Past, Inscribing the Future". She is regarded "more javanese" than us, javanese people. She speaks javanese very fluently, understand very well, because she was living at certain time in the past, inside the Kraton Solo as one of King Paku Buwono's wives).

There are so many nuances that we can grasp, on keris, if we understand what people in the past said about keris, and not excluded too -- sometimes on dhapur, or on ricikan of kerises.

In some "keris discussions" in java -- even in Jakarta now -- sometimes people reciting "tembang", which contain some simple javanese narration on keris. But of course, we must understand to some way of how to express tembang. A "dandang gula " (a certain type of recitation) narration, of course must be recited in "dandang gula" way. Also, a "kinanti" recitation, or "megatruh", "pangkur", "sinom" must be recited in their specific way. The intonation of each "tembang" also could give the way to express the narration, and so we can memorize the recitation, and the meaning of the recitation.

I can not tell you further on this, because I'm not majoring much this habit except to understand what they recite the narration, in higher grade javanese language. Many thing I can learn from such recitation, the culture of keris in the past. On keris, in some recitations, sometimes we find descriptions of keris "ricikan", or keris dhapur in "tembang"... I don't think this habit is important for us in this forum, at all... But maybe important for me or us in Java, to learn further more on the javanese spirit, or deeper knowledge on keris spirit...

Then, if I read certain books on keris which were published abroad, sometimes I must change my attitude. And try to understand, for instance, if I read a "new" keris term to read -- as "durga hilt", for instance. That we never read such terminology in whatever literature in Java. Or if someone interpretes, that "karno tinanding" is a keris "with two ears". This is also something strange for us, javanese people. All we knew on "karno tinanding" is "karno in Baratayuda", which was (in the epic, legend) fighting against his own brother, Arjuna. As does to keris name such as "Bima Krodha" for instance. "Bima Krodha", of course could not be translated literally, but we must understand too, the nuance of the story of "The Angry Bima" in Baratayuda literature.

Yes, we know that "karna" means "ear", But what I heard always, that "karna tinanding" here is Karno in Baratayuda. Two "sekar kacang" is not two ears, is it? Sekar kacang does not represent ear. But elephant trunk. But I must accept, that's the easier way to understand the "karno tinanding", although we in Java usually not understand it that way.

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

....anybody can have an opinion

but everybody's opinion is not equal

there is the informed opinion, and there is the uniformed opinion

in any matter of weight only a fool will give an opinion and not wish for his opinion to receive respect

if we wish our opinion to be treated with respect we need to provide evidence or argument that our opinion is worthy of respect

when we are dealing with the keris, we can adopt at least two varying positions:- we can adopt the "social" position, where we make noises and give opinions simply to engage in conversation; opinions given whilst in this mode need not be taken too seriously and rejection need not cause offence

or, we can adopt the "serious" position, and when we do this we do need to provide evidence or argument to validate the opinion we give......

All I know, there are only two positions in this forum. The moderator -- Rick and David -- and the others are ordinary members. I didn't know that there is a differentiation in "social position" and "serious position". How can we differentiate? Are the serious position members, have a special status?

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

....with reference to the keris, this is relatively easy to do, because a number guidebooks and documents set forth the parameters by which we shall classify a keris

where such a guidebook or document has had the approval of a ruler, then the only variation that is permissable within the area where the dictates of that ruler are considered to be paramount, is a variation that has the approval of the current ruler of that area.......

I don't think it is easy. We will get more difficult, if we must do this. Which reference guide books? Can we use that guide books to consider parameters in any keris? I don't think so. It is impossible, if you want to understand Cirebonese kerises with Kraton Solo guidance only.. Even if we want to understand more details on keris Solo, we must specify which pakem? Which Paku Buwono? We can not always use the latest guidance, for appreciating the older kerises although still in the same Kraton...

We know already, for instance, that since Gianti Treaty (February 13, 1755) -- Mataram was splitted in to two ways Solonese and Yogyakartan. Can we appreciate Solonese nom-noman (younger era keris) with Yogyakartan guidance? Or vice versa, can we appreciate Yogyakartan nom-noman such as famous kerises from HB VII with Solonese kraton guidance? Sometimes, contradiction happens...

Those were the problems, IMHO, encountered by Haryono Guritno's team (consist of certain respected keris people, IMHO) when they were preparing the keris proposal for UNESCO, and his book on "Keris Jawa". Which pakem they will use? And we can see from his book -- Mr Guritno accomodate some pakem in certain footnote, of the keris details matrix, for instance). I am not Guritno's follower, but I can respect him, respect his team's effort...

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

....dhapur names are a system of classification

however, although those names can be understood, and do have a superficial meaning, they fail to convey any sense

the philosophical meanings that are currently attached to many dhapur names are probably no more than a couple of hundred years old, in most cases, and have more to do with Javanese philosophy than with the origins of the keris as a social icon --- however, this is essentially a different subject and need not be addressed here.

any classification system only has value as a device to sort things into groups :- it does not imply any knowledge of the content of that which is classified, it only verifies knowledge of the system by which one classifies.As an example, a clerk in an inwards mail facilty can read a letter, or an email, and he can classify it according to its content and direct it to the person in his organisation who can deal with the matters therein. But that clerk knows nothing of those matters that need to be dealt with.

it is exactly the same when we classify a keris according to dhapur or pamor or tangguh or whatever:- we understand the classificatory system, but we fail to understand the keris that we have classified.

Because of this I hold the position that knowledge of the classifcatory systems used in dealing with the keris is knowledge of a very minor degree.

For a certain extent, I agree. But me as javanese, we are different. We have different perception in some way. For us, we learn other way....

GANJAWULUNG