Interesting Flyssa

Jim McDougall · 31st October 2006, 04:43 AM

Hi Ariel,
Actually the trilobate 'karabela' type pommel I noted was on an Ottoman sword from the Maghreb, not on the typically seen flyssa, which also carries an unidentifiable zoomorphic pommel often suspected to be eagle or some significant bird. Interestingly the hilt noted is very much like certain Arabian saif of 18th c.as shown in Elgood, in the trilobed pommel, again much like karabelas. It seems generally held that the karabela hilt, though the term etymology is uncertain as is its origin, was well known in the Ottoman sphere.

The similarities between the Black Sea yataghan and the flyssa are clearly known and as I had noted, I feel that the significant presence of tribesmen from the regions established for BSY may account for such influences. This is especially noted in the needle type point, similar to Tatar sabres such as the Polish examples known as 'ordynka'. Many of these were produced in Armenian shops in Lvov, and it is interesting that the original accounts of the BSY, as early as Jacobsen (1941) and subsequently Siefert (1962) termed these recurved sabres Kurdish-Armenian yataghans. The tribesmen from Transcaucasian regions (another term applied to the BSY) that entered Ottoman forces in the Maghreb may have carried such weapons with them to these regions.
Naturally this is speculation, but while geographically distant, such diffusion within the Ottoman sphere seems entirely plausible.

I knew it would be hard to avoid dragging out the old BSY syndrome, but it really does seem pertinant here. As I noted before, your work in establishing the BSY as Laz Bicagi was great! and in my opinion pretty much closed the book on the mystery, despite the steadfast opposition which still disagrees.

It would seem that the rule of Occams 'yataghan' should apply!!

All the best,
Jim

31st October 2006, 04:43 AM	#19
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,194	Hi Ariel, Actually the trilobate 'karabela' type pommel I noted was on an Ottoman sword from the Maghreb, not on the typically seen flyssa, which also carries an unidentifiable zoomorphic pommel often suspected to be eagle or some significant bird. Interestingly the hilt noted is very much like certain Arabian saif of 18th c.as shown in Elgood, in the trilobed pommel, again much like karabelas. It seems generally held that the karabela hilt, though the term etymology is uncertain as is its origin, was well known in the Ottoman sphere. The similarities between the Black Sea yataghan and the flyssa are clearly known and as I had noted, I feel that the significant presence of tribesmen from the regions established for BSY may account for such influences. This is especially noted in the needle type point, similar to Tatar sabres such as the Polish examples known as 'ordynka'. Many of these were produced in Armenian shops in Lvov, and it is interesting that the original accounts of the BSY, as early as Jacobsen (1941) and subsequently Siefert (1962) termed these recurved sabres Kurdish-Armenian yataghans. The tribesmen from Transcaucasian regions (another term applied to the BSY) that entered Ottoman forces in the Maghreb may have carried such weapons with them to these regions. Naturally this is speculation, but while geographically distant, such diffusion within the Ottoman sphere seems entirely plausible. I knew it would be hard to avoid dragging out the old BSY syndrome, but it really does seem pertinant here. As I noted before, your work in establishing the BSY as Laz Bicagi was great! and in my opinion pretty much closed the book on the mystery, despite the steadfast opposition which still disagrees. It would seem that the rule of Occams 'yataghan' should apply!! All the best, Jim