Opinions please

[David]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

The worker in the forge fulfills a similar function:- he takes iron that is dead and he turns it into something that is living, but this living piece of iron will eventually perish, only to be renewed again. The iron changes, but it does not disappear, its form alters, but it is only waiting to be brought back to life by the worker in the forge.

This is not magic. It is simply the way in which the world functions, and its there for everybody to see, all they need to do is to look.

Sorry Alan, but i maintain that is exactly what magic is, again, "the science and art of causing change to occur in conformity with Will." Magick is a part of the natural world. Seeing magick is about looking for it. Now my world view on magick has been heavily influenced by the very European magickal lodges of the late 18th and 19th centuries and their philosophies on the subject. I suppose that the general European populous may have had a somewhat different viewpoint on the subject. But i believe that the European idea of magick that came from within European magickal societies (actual occult philosophies not generally accepted or even considered by the mundane citizen) was not so far from the Javanese concept of magick as you might think.
It was not my intention to bring the concept of stage magic into the conversation at all. Of course we are not discussing that. I was simply explaining the use of the spelling "magicK" to differentiate it from common stage magic. Nor when i speak of magick am i in any way referring to either European or Javanese ideas about "black" magic.
I am quite aware that the Javanese were not primitive people and would not be fooled by advanced technologies of the Europeans. I quite agree that as technology grows slowly before you it does not shock, surprise or fool you by its progress. This still does not mean that Western technology (and the culture, products want to, ideals and desires it brought with it) has not affected how Indonesians view the keris. The more that Javanese society has become influenced my modern technology and the information age, the more i believe they have moved away from their world view of the seen and unseen worlds. This world view is probably seen more like superstition with each proceeding generation.
I find it interesting that you have tried to draw me into this discussion repetitively stating that there are no "rights" or "wrongs" on this issue, yet you seem to find fault in my opinion anyway.