Keris - javanese blade in Kedah mounts?

A. G. Maisey · 23rd December 2012, 08:27 PM

Thank you gentlemen.

Willem, yes, I have read in this Forum many times that the dotted line proves that a material is hippo ivory. Many, many times.

What I would like to know is this:-

1) what is the source of this information? Hopefully it will be a credible source, possibly a book, or paper by some respected authority, or researcher, and with a verification from one or more other sources. I am looking for fact, not opinion.

2) when was this issue of "hippo ivory" relative to keris hilts first identified, and by whom?

Jean, I think you are naming "Webster" as the source for identification of hippo ivory by presence of a dotted line?

Who is Webster, how reliable is his work, when was it produced? Is there verification?

I have not raised the matter of where and when hippo ivory was first used, rather I have raised the matter of who first made the claim that certain keris hilts were made of hippo ivory, and when did this occur.

Rasdan, yes, I believe you're correct. I feel that it is absolutely a belief that is anchored in the western keris world, and a relatively new belief at that. This is the reason that I am attempting to fix a beginning point for this entry of the hippo ivory belief into keris collecting.

I'm not arguing against the possibility of hippo ivory, but what I would like to see is a qualifier when the possibility of hippo ivory arises, for example:-

"because of the dotted line (Webster) there is a high probability that this hilt is made of hippo ivory"

rather than:-

" this hilt is of hippo ivory"

David, this is not a comment on hippo ivory, but on quality of workmanship.

Thirty years ago in Surabaya I bought a large number of keris hilts from several different dealers. Some were wood, some were various kinds of ivory, some were in other materials. Some were old, some were recent. Most were Madurese and intricately carved.

The highest prices were paid for the finest workmanship. Material had very little impact on price. I paid more for some wooden hilts than I did for some ivory hilts. The determining factor for price was quality, not material.

In Jawa this situation prevailed through until the tree huggers swung into action and succeeded in getting the international trade in ivory banned. As predicted, the price of ivory immediately sky-rocketed and the illegal ivory trade along with mass extinctions of elephants took off like gang busters.

If you want make something more valuable, ban trade in that item.

23rd December 2012, 08:27 PM	#27
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,994	Thank you gentlemen. Willem, yes, I have read in this Forum many times that the dotted line proves that a material is hippo ivory. Many, many times. What I would like to know is this:- 1) what is the source of this information? Hopefully it will be a credible source, possibly a book, or paper by some respected authority, or researcher, and with a verification from one or more other sources. I am looking for fact, not opinion. 2) when was this issue of "hippo ivory" relative to keris hilts first identified, and by whom? Jean, I think you are naming "Webster" as the source for identification of hippo ivory by presence of a dotted line? Who is Webster, how reliable is his work, when was it produced? Is there verification? I have not raised the matter of where and when hippo ivory was first used, rather I have raised the matter of who first made the claim that certain keris hilts were made of hippo ivory, and when did this occur. Rasdan, yes, I believe you're correct. I feel that it is absolutely a belief that is anchored in the western keris world, and a relatively new belief at that. This is the reason that I am attempting to fix a beginning point for this entry of the hippo ivory belief into keris collecting. I'm not arguing against the possibility of hippo ivory, but what I would like to see is a qualifier when the possibility of hippo ivory arises, for example:- "because of the dotted line (Webster) there is a high probability that this hilt is made of hippo ivory" rather than:- " this hilt is of hippo ivory" David, this is not a comment on hippo ivory, but on quality of workmanship. Thirty years ago in Surabaya I bought a large number of keris hilts from several different dealers. Some were wood, some were various kinds of ivory, some were in other materials. Some were old, some were recent. Most were Madurese and intricately carved. The highest prices were paid for the finest workmanship. Material had very little impact on price. I paid more for some wooden hilts than I did for some ivory hilts. The determining factor for price was quality, not material. In Jawa this situation prevailed through until the tree huggers swung into action and succeeded in getting the international trade in ivory banned. As predicted, the price of ivory immediately sky-rocketed and the illegal ivory trade along with mass extinctions of elephants took off like gang busters. If you want make something more valuable, ban trade in that item.