Kattara for comments

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Iain

Hi Ibrahiim,

Your points are clear and I'm glad you are acknowledging the flexibility issue is driven by dance not combat needs. I think since you aren't sure of a timeline, that perhaps you are assigning this need to a far earlier period than necessary.

Do you have or have you examined a circa 18th century flexible long sayf blade? Pictures?

I think by assuming the flexibility requirement goes that far back you are removing the key evidence for the long form sayf.

Regarding if hilting a blade changes the ethnicity, I would say yes, because it means the sword was accepted into that ethnicity. Otherwise there is no way to include European blades into your Omani sayf definition at all - you have ruled them out with your criteria. That's why I would say I have a takouba with a European blade, the hilting turns it into a takouba and a sword of the Hausa/Tuareg/Fulani/whatever. Hilting is the process of adopting a blade locally.

Regarding fullers and marks:

On marks, there is no reason to make them to enhance the perceived value of the blade if the original European blades were not already in use and perceived as valuable. So if we have flexible blades with fake marks it clearly points out the fact that the original European blades were respected and desired locally - otherwise no reason to copy the marks. So I don't really care if the marks are fake or not, they wouldn't exist if Omanis were using European blades and associating the marks with quality. If there was no trade blade influence, you wouldn't find the marks at all, there would be no reason for Omani smiths to copy them. Are there marks on the short old sayf type in the same style? Not that I've ever seen, somehow and from somewhere the idea to start using blade marks arrived.

Fullers, the triple fuller configuration in conjunction with the half moon stamps (and these half moons have a face which I do not believe is a typical Islamic illustration?) are a very well known pattern. That it would appear in Oman, at roughly the same time period as the Sahel and other areas, in exactly the same pattern, without being directly related to the European imports, really seems to defy logic. Just too many coincidences. This matches up exactly with the examples I linked and you acknowledge are Omani.

I realize your skepticism has a sound base in having not found any European blades in swords that are Omani in your system, but I have to think this is only because you have set the criteria in your system in such a way that you will never find any because you are not counting the stiffer blades. We've already seen at least one example of how the tangs and long hilts are combined on trade blades.

The way you've structured the progression there is a hole in the transition from a pretty specific style of short sword to a long blade with some pretty striking characteristics which happen to line up perfectly with European blades found in the area, except for stiffness. Remove the reliance on having to say an Omani blade flexes to around 90 degrees (by the way do the short swords do this?) and you remove the hole and have a clear progression where elements of European trade blades were copied into a new Omani form that provided the flexibility needed for the dance.

I really just don't see how there is any other conclusion for fake wolf stamps, triple fullers with twin moon stamps and the like popping up in Omani swords, not to mention a switch to a sword length that matches up nicely with the European exports.

For me the issue is not in finding the mythical flexible long form sayf export blade from Europe, but in understanding why and how that form was developed locally and what influences led to the dramatic change in form.

As always, just some friendly ideas and comments.

All the best,

Iain

Salaams Iain ~ I agree with most of your post. You are correct in assuming my scepticism since I have not found a single piece of evidence that a European Trade Blade exists in Oman.

Much of the discussion revolves around what you say and is as yet largely unresolved. The important thing for me is to keep an open mind since there is such fragile evidence for local manufacture and even less scant clue as to the European Trade Blade import story.

Fake Stamps. The Muscat Museum insists that the woolf stamp on their 19th C Long Omani Sayf is fake. I believe it is . I have seen other fake stamps on the thick blade variants from what I believe is Yemeni/Saudia sword identical to the one shown in the Yemeni Military Museum. Faking blade marks is legion here... I would say the majority of swords here carry fake markings. As I say prestige and price are likely candidates. I show a swathe of fake marks on this thread Raj Crowns, God is Great, stars et al on #98... they are nearly all shoved on for show or to fake provenance or raise the price. Odd in its own right since thay are true Omani Swords but left to individual swordmakers they seem to think it makes the item more attractive (there is something in that from the cosmetic viewpoint). I handled a sword in Muscat Souk for which I have a photo and that too was a Red Sea job fake marked with the easily copied passau woolf. It only requires a decent chisel and a mallet and its about 15 small strikes to copy.. as you know the mark is quite randomly done even on originals so it is a cinch to copy..

Timescale. Naturally this is a vital question but is as yet not pinpointed, though, you will see quotes on this thread from European visitors mentioning the blades likeness to Scotish claymores...at the Hormus Garrison in the early 1800s etc. viz;

1.In 1878 a Mr Geary (editor of the Times of India) visited Muscat and wrote of the weapons he saw carried by locals ~ A favourite weapon is a straight broad two-handed sword, the sweep of which would take off a man's thigh or even cut him in two at the waist.The swordsmen carried over their shoulder small shields of rhinoceros horn 8 or 9 inches in diameter....

2.Captain James Welstead in 1835 at Jalaan Bani Bu Ali (on the Eastern edge of the Wahaybah) remarked on the Funoon, Razha, sword parade and dance that the blades of their swords are 3 feet in length, straight, thin, double edged and as sharp as a razor.

3.Mr Frazer who also visited Hormuz in 1821 (and Oman at the same time as Welstead in about 1835) described The Omani Garrison at Hormuz swords as similar to Scotish Broadswords and also described separately in Oman later the Ters buckler shields..


Flexibility of blade. Vital. Not flexible not Omani and must be spatulate tipped not pointed ~ To date I have not handled a stiff dancing blade (my terminology since I can see how lethal they are as fighting swords also). Old blades Sayf Yamani are completely stiff and pointed. Is it simply down to fashion that bendy blades took over...in a suggested broad timescale of say 150 years...and a new fighting and dancing technique was cemented in behind that?

European Trade Blade or European Trade Blade Influence. There is a huge difference. I have been fed the Trade Blade theory of ships camel trains etc bringing great quantities of German blades to Oman and either direct or via one of the hubs possibly Zanzibar. For proof I continue to search and if a single jot appears I will report on that. As it stands at the moment it looks like a myth !

Parallel with investigating imports I must also look for local manufacture. (it could be both) The timescale is as baffling to me as the unbelievable change in style.. All we know is that it happened.

From what you are saying ~ It seems logical that a way out for the long stiff blades may be as an interim blade between the Old Omani Short and the Long flexible item. Though I bear this in mind it does only seem to be in Red Sea variants which I associate with Mamluke, Saudia, Yemeni variants and with the addition of my earlier evidence showing possible Algerian influence/manufacture.

If it is proven that the Omani European Trade Blade is a myth could it be that the Omanis copied a long blade Red Sea variant into their history books...and gave it a flexible blade and spatulate tip?

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.