Were Rapiers used in Combat?

Jim McDougall · 5th May 2009, 11:37 PM

Kisak and Fernando,
Thank you so much for responding guys!
Beautifully stated and well thought out observations and I've spent some time trying to find references here as well. I am inclined to agree with both of you in what you have noted.
I think there were some differences between military and civilian rapiers, though I think these might be hard to distinguish by hilt alone, as these fully developed hilts, even many swept hilts, seem to have carried heavier 'arming' type blades in military parlance.
I think the very narrow civilian rapiers big problem was not only too narrow and fragile, but too long, some reaching fantastic lengths which even promoted some efforts at regulating same.

Kisak, I remember the first time I handled an actual rapier, I was stunned at the sheer heft! This certainly was anything but the light and delicate fencing foil or Hollywood rapiers waved around as such...it was heavy, solid and one could see how quickly combat with these would spend the combatants.

Apparantly the military use of complex hilts with the heavier arming blades was well known, and I think that the ever present villain of semantics in terminology might present difficulty in assessing the actual use of rapiers or complex hilted soldiers swords in combat. In the Encyclopedia Brittanica of 1771, the rapier is defined as the old broadsword used by common soldiers.
(A.V.B. Norman, "The Rapier & Smallsword:1460-1820", p.27).

I guess I should have thought this out better

The pappenheimer, while considered or at least termed a 'rapier' is better defined as an arming sword with developed rapier type hilt.

These sword terms can really be misleading ! Thank you both for your views, which explain in much better perspective what little I discovered in my daily rampage through the bookmobile!

All the very best,
Jim

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5th May 2009, 11:37 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,283	Kisak and Fernando, Thank you so much for responding guys! Beautifully stated and well thought out observations and I've spent some time trying to find references here as well. I am inclined to agree with both of you in what you have noted. I think there were some differences between military and civilian rapiers, though I think these might be hard to distinguish by hilt alone, as these fully developed hilts, even many swept hilts, seem to have carried heavier 'arming' type blades in military parlance. I think the very narrow civilian rapiers big problem was not only too narrow and fragile, but too long, some reaching fantastic lengths which even promoted some efforts at regulating same. Kisak, I remember the first time I handled an actual rapier, I was stunned at the sheer heft! This certainly was anything but the light and delicate fencing foil or Hollywood rapiers waved around as such...it was heavy, solid and one could see how quickly combat with these would spend the combatants. Apparantly the military use of complex hilts with the heavier arming blades was well known, and I think that the ever present villain of semantics in terminology might present difficulty in assessing the actual use of rapiers or complex hilted soldiers swords in combat. In the Encyclopedia Brittanica of 1771, the rapier is defined as the old broadsword used by common soldiers. (A.V.B. Norman, "The Rapier & Smallsword:1460-1820", p.27). I guess I should have thought this out better The pappenheimer, while considered or at least termed a 'rapier' is better defined as an arming sword with developed rapier type hilt. These sword terms can really be misleading ! Thank you both for your views, which explain in much better perspective what little I discovered in my daily rampage through the bookmobile! All the very best, Jim