"Malaysian kris/keris"

[F. de Luzon]

Originally Posted by David

You seem to be debating a point that no one is arguing here. The Sundang is fairly well accepted as developing from some form of Indonesian keris (whether Bugis or Balinese, etc. has never been proven), but the form itself, as a slashing sword length weapon has pretty much always been attributed to the Moro people. No one has stated otherwise in this thread.


Yep, again, no one is debating this point here. The Kris Sundang (and you will find numerous other weapons in the area of the Philippines also called "sundang" given the generic nature of the word) is not originally an Indonesian creation. However, there is a form of it that is from areas of Indonesia and yes, the indigenous population of these areas that are collectors, in other words, Malay people, do refer to this now as a Malay Sundang. Frankly, what Winstedt has to say about terminology ( which is mostly the re-hashing of other European authors in the book section you have posted) in pre-WWII Malaysia is a fairly moot issue at this point in time. Language evolves. That a large community of indigenous Malay collectors now refer to their own version of the Moro kris as a "Malay Sundang" legitimizes that terminology for me. It is, after all, their culture.


Again, i am not sure who you are debating or trying to convince. However, i and many others might argue your conclusive question. Why is it not just as likely that after seeing Moro kris and accepting and re-dressing traded blades in Malay/Indonesian styles that smiths in various Malay regions would not attempt to forge their own on their home turf? Obviously the smiths of Brunei, Sumatra, Borneo and Sulawesi have proven themselves quite skillful blade smiths over the centuries. So why assume that the sundangs that obviously don't look Moro in origin had to be created by Javanese or Sumatran smiths still living in the Philippines who emigrated to, say, Sulu or some other area of Moroland? Frankly, as much as you are demanding "scholarly" references from me, nothing you have presented supports your idea that none of these "so-call" Malay Sundangs have blades that were actually made in Indonesia. I would think that logic would suggest that in fact Indonesian smiths would emulate the slashing sword form of the Moro kris and create their own take on it.
Again, no one is denying that a great many of these Malay Sundangs (and i will continue to refer to them as such because that is what Malays call them these days) do indeed have Moro blades. But enough do not to raise the question of where those other blades may have been manufactured. Assuming they are all traded blades from the Philippines does not make sense to me and does not seem to hold up to observational evidence.

Hi David,

"The Sundang is fairly well accepted as developing from some form of Indonesian keris."

This point has not been proven at all and is not even discussed in any literature on the keris. I don't think Cato even discussed it in his work on Moro swords.

"Frankly, what Winstedt has to say about terminology ( which is mostly the re-hashing of other European authors in the book section you have posted).."

I am curious who these authors are? Please take note that Winstedt published this article in 1941.

"Language evolves. That a large community of indigenous Malay collectors now refer to their own version of the Moro kris as a "Malay Sundang" legitimizes that terminology for me. It is, after all, their culture."

True, but in what way is this a case of linguistic evolution? I see it as a misappropriation of a term which makes it necessary to correct and which I am attempting to do. Like I also said, I have not encountered the term "Malay Sundang" in any reliable literature.

"Why is it not just as likely that after seeing Moro kris and accepting and re-dressing traded blades in Malay/Indonesian styles that smiths in various Malay regions would not attempt to forge their own on their home turf? Obviously the smiths of Brunei, Sumatra, Borneo and Sulawesi have proven themselves quite skillful blade smiths over the centuries. So why assume that the sundangs that obviously don't look Moro in origin had to be created by Javanese or Sumatran smiths still living in the Philippines who emigrated to, say, Sulu or some other area of Moroland?"

Simply because no evidence of such appears in any serious study. I am basing my statements on published scholarly works and not mere imagination.

"Frankly, as much as you are demanding "scholarly" references from me, nothing you have presented supports your idea that none of these "so-call" Malay Sundangs have blades that were actually made in Indonesia. I would think that logic would suggest that in fact Indonesian smiths would emulate the slashing sword form of the Moro kris and create their own take on it."

Please check the references and you will see what I mean. None say their origins to be Indonesia but they do mention Sulu and Borneo. None also mention the term "Malay Sundang." I would provide all the details if I were writing a paper for a journal publication here but I am not. I will publish that somewhere else. I have nonetheless indicated the references or at least their authors for the convenience of those who would like to engage in a scholarly understanding of the sundang. I'm sorry but logic is not sufficient to prove the point. We have to recognize the hard work of earlier scholars who devoted time and effort to find out the truth. I have based my views on such works.

Anyway, the problem with this platform of communication is that sentiments may be misinterpreted and we are reduced to expressing ourselves in the form of emoticons. I hope I am not coming off as being adversarial. I am not. I am simply sharing my thoughts but I hope nonetheless that it would be taken seriously. I respect your views but it seems that at this point, the least we can do is to agree to disagree. I hope we can agree on that.