Tulwar European blade? for comment

HUSAR · 1st November 2006, 09:54 AM

Dear Memnbers:
What is your opinion about the blade in this tulwar? Do you think it is European or rather Indian "mimic" work? The blade is non damscus, slightly curved 75 cm long, both sides 3 times marked GENOA. Thank you in advance for any comments.
Best
Husar

Jens Nordlunde · 1st November 2006, 05:06 PM

Hi Husar,

I think it must be an Indian blade, as I don't think any European blade factory would have marked a blade three times on each side.
Nice tulwar and a nice used blade.

HUSAR · 1st November 2006, 06:38 PM

I think you are right Jens, it look like somebody was trying to make this tulwar more expensive and went too far

anyway I like it and it is well balanced
Thanks Jens for comment

katana · 1st November 2006, 08:15 PM

Nice Tulwar....I have to agree with Jens ...I dont think this is a Euro blade either

Hrthuma ibn Marwan · 1st November 2006, 09:08 PM

Its strange though.. Genoa is a city in Italy..

A very nice sword btw

katana · 1st November 2006, 10:02 PM

Genoa is a port and has had regular trading contact with India for many centuries......I cannot find any information on swordsmithing in Genoa....so it does seem strange that it is on the blade.....unless it has something to do with the trade link...

Rivkin · 2nd November 2006, 02:44 AM

As far as I know, "Genoa" is considered one of the possible "parents" of "gurda". According to Lenz "Marks on weapons" and Astvatzaturjan originally such mark was indeed placed on swords from Genoa, however then it was adopted by germans and later copied throughout the word.

The mark here does not seem genuine enough since "jaws" (two eyebrow-like lines) are too schematic. Locally made ?

Jim McDougall · 2nd November 2006, 03:34 AM

I completely agree with Jens, this appears to be a well made Indian interpretation of probably European sabre blades. The stepped blade near the base seems an Indian characteristic on some tulwar blades.
The 'Genoa' is an application often employed on numerous trade blades implying degree of quality and was often associated with the well known 'sickle' marks . These marks looking like toothed half circles in parallel often appeared with 'Genoa' or sometimes 'fringia' and without words as well, and are known to have used in Styrian and Caucasian bladeworks (where the term gurda denotes 'good blade' I am told).

HUSAR · 2nd November 2006, 06:19 PM

Hello
Thank you for comments, now I`m more sure that this is not an European blade… According to GENOA marks or other mentioned by Jim please find some on the picture I have some blades on which is even wrong spelling as GNEOA and GANEA … Imported blades from Italy were very often used in Polish swords.
Regards
Husar

Jens Nordlunde · 2nd November 2006, 06:30 PM

Hi Husar,

Yes it is a bit tricky, but thank you for the illustration. I am especially interested in one at the bottom to the right. Have alook at this one.

HUSAR · 2nd November 2006, 06:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Hi Husar,

Yes it is a bit tricky, but thank you for the illustration. I am especially interested in one at the bottom to the right. Have alook at this one.

Hi Jen
on what kind of blade do you have this one? Can you post picture of whole?

Jens Nordlunde · 2nd November 2006, 09:35 PM

Yes i can, although i don't see what difference it makes.

HUSAR · 5th November 2006, 07:37 PM

HI Jens
I just wonted to see blade construction, which reminds me european smiths hmm
the second mark near the hilt is with persian characters inside or?? I checked few of my books but I could not find the same marking

I can only say that "stars" look simmilar to markings on one of my firangi swords.

Best
Husar

Jens Nordlunde · 5th November 2006, 09:14 PM

Hi Husar,

The deep stamp close to the langet says 'Ibrahim', and at the back of the blade is another inscription.
Do you know this one?

HUSAR · 5th November 2006, 09:23 PM

No sorry I do not know but I have seen turkish karabela sword with very similar markings, I will see it again next month and try to take pictures OK, that karabela is marked almost in the same way with nice heavy blade almost 5 cm wide near the tip. The other marking on the blade back looks like indian to me.
I have simmilar on a few tulwars, and I consider them as arsenal markings given to swords later than blades were made ...maybe wrong

This tulwar is non-damascus?
Best
Husar

Jens Nordlunde · 5th November 2006, 09:33 PM

I doubt very much that you will find this on a karabela, as it is Sanskrit meanind K/Ka/kah. But it would be very interesting to see pictures of your tulwars with this mark.

Jens

HUSAR · 5th November 2006, 09:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

I doubt very much that you will find this on a karabela, as it is Sanskrit meanind K/Ka/kah. But it would be very interesting to see pictures of your tulwars with this mark.

Jens

this karabela has simmilar marking to this one on the tulwar blade and is also marked near the hilt not on the back I will manage pictures and send you within few weeks, my tulwars are marked but not same charcters
I will make pictures and send you too...

1st November 2006, 09:54 AM	#1
HUSAR Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Poland Posts: 80	Tulwar European blade? for comment Dear Memnbers: What is your opinion about the blade in this tulwar? Do you think it is European or rather Indian "mimic" work? The blade is non damscus, slightly curved 75 cm long, both sides 3 times marked GENOA. Thank you in advance for any comments. Best Husar Attached Images

2nd November 2006, 06:19 PM	#9
HUSAR Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Poland Posts: 80	Hello Thank you for comments, now I`m more sure that this is not an European blade… According to GENOA marks or other mentioned by Jim please find some on the picture I have some blades on which is even wrong spelling as GNEOA and GANEA … Imported blades from Italy were very often used in Polish swords. Regards Husar Attached Images

2nd November 2006, 06:30 PM	#10
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Hi Husar, Yes it is a bit tricky, but thank you for the illustration. I am especially interested in one at the bottom to the right. Have alook at this one. Attached Images

2nd November 2006, 09:35 PM	#12
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Yes i can, although i don't see what difference it makes. Attached Images

5th November 2006, 09:14 PM	#14
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Hi Husar, The deep stamp close to the langet says 'Ibrahim', and at the back of the blade is another inscription. Do you know this one? Attached Images

1st November 2006, 05:06 PM	#2
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Hi Husar, I think it must be an Indian blade, as I don't think any European blade factory would have marked a blade three times on each side. Nice tulwar and a nice used blade.

1st November 2006, 06:38 PM	#3
HUSAR Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Poland Posts: 80	I think you are right Jens, it look like somebody was trying to make this tulwar more expensive and went too far anyway I like it and it is well balanced Thanks Jens for comment

1st November 2006, 08:15 PM	#4
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Nice Tulwar....I have to agree with Jens ...I dont think this is a Euro blade either

1st November 2006, 09:08 PM	#5
Hrthuma ibn Marwan Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: in my study Posts: 18	Its strange though.. Genoa is a city in Italy.. A very nice sword btw

1st November 2006, 10:02 PM	#6
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Genoa is a port and has had regular trading contact with India for many centuries......I cannot find any information on swordsmithing in Genoa....so it does seem strange that it is on the blade.....unless it has something to do with the trade link...

2nd November 2006, 02:44 AM	#7
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	As far as I know, "Genoa" is considered one of the possible "parents" of "gurda". According to Lenz "Marks on weapons" and Astvatzaturjan originally such mark was indeed placed on swords from Genoa, however then it was adopted by germans and later copied throughout the word. The mark here does not seem genuine enough since "jaws" (two eyebrow-like lines) are too schematic. Locally made ?

2nd November 2006, 03:34 AM	#8
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,660	I completely agree with Jens, this appears to be a well made Indian interpretation of probably European sabre blades. The stepped blade near the base seems an Indian characteristic on some tulwar blades. The 'Genoa' is an application often employed on numerous trade blades implying degree of quality and was often associated with the well known 'sickle' marks . These marks looking like toothed half circles in parallel often appeared with 'Genoa' or sometimes 'fringia' and without words as well, and are known to have used in Styrian and Caucasian bladeworks (where the term gurda denotes 'good blade' I am told).

5th November 2006, 07:37 PM	#13
HUSAR Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Poland Posts: 80	HI Jens I just wonted to see blade construction, which reminds me european smiths hmm the second mark near the hilt is with persian characters inside or?? I checked few of my books but I could not find the same marking I can only say that "stars" look simmilar to markings on one of my firangi swords. Best Husar

5th November 2006, 09:23 PM	#15
HUSAR Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Poland Posts: 80	No sorry I do not know but I have seen turkish karabela sword with very similar markings, I will see it again next month and try to take pictures OK, that karabela is marked almost in the same way with nice heavy blade almost 5 cm wide near the tip. The other marking on the blade back looks like indian to me. I have simmilar on a few tulwars, and I consider them as arsenal markings given to swords later than blades were made ...maybe wrong This tulwar is non-damascus? Best Husar

5th November 2006, 09:33 PM	#16
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	I doubt very much that you will find this on a karabela, as it is Sanskrit meanind K/Ka/kah. But it would be very interesting to see pictures of your tulwars with this mark. Jens