Opinions: large Kris w/ intricate inlay

[another_rick]

Hi all. New here and looking for advice/opinions on my keris. I inherited this from my father several years ago, and despite much research, I cannot find any published examples that are truly comparable - particularly the inlay. I'm hoping someone here has some insight. If nothing else, I hope you all find this half as fascinating as I have.

Details:
1) Luk-11, blade-only (no ukiran, waranga, etc.)
2) Weight: 1,023 g
3) Length: 57.3 cm (not including pesi)
4) Blade Width: 5.4 cm at luk-1, tapering to 4.6 cm at luk-11
5) Blade Thickness: 0.60 cm at luk-1, tapering to 0.44 cm at luk-11
6) Ganja Width: 15.8 cm
7) Ganja Thickness: 1.60 cm (at center)
8) Inlay: Both sides of the blade contain the same, intricate inlay (kinitah?) that extends from ganja to tip. Inlay material is almost entirely present, but the few voids present reveal deeply cut channels (~1.5 mm).

I believe this to be from central Java, possibly late 18th century, but that's I brave to speculate at this point. Any info or questions are welcome.
(Note: Final photo a sketch-over, intending to show the full inlay design clearly.)

Thank you,
another_rick

[Rick]

Hi Rick, welcome to the forums. As noted at the bottom of your post this has been moved to the Ethnographic forum.
This Kris is from the Philippines, not Indonesia and is from one of the Muslim Moro tribes.
An Ethnographic forum search using KRIS will provide lots of examples and information on of this type of sword.
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ight=kris+moro

The Keris Warung forum is for discussions of the Keris of Indonesia.

It's a handsome blade, someone here may be able to restore the inlays for you.

[Sajen]

Hi Rick,

Welcome to the forum! Like Rick noted, it's a kris from the Philippines, around 1900 would be my guess. I think it's from Mindanao but I am not sure but we have members here who will be able to tell you more.
You need to clean the blade from rust, the blade will benefit from a good clean-up. To restore it to a complete kris would be what the most of us here would do, adding a fitting handle and clamps would make this a beautiful kris, the blade has beautiful inlays! The inlays have a talismanic purpose. See here for kris with talismanic inlays: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ght=kris+inlay
Attached is a very similar blade from one of our members.

Regards,
Detlef

[Ian]

Hello another_rick.

Welcome to the Ethnographic Forum! As Rick has noted, this is an example of a Moro kris. It has a complicated inlaid pattern that is very unusual.

I don't think this is an 18th C blade, but rather late 19th or even early 20th C. judging from its width and the way the terminal luk and tip have been constructed. The dark patina and mild surface pitting suggest that the blade has not been well maintained over the last century or so.

Of note is the very short tang. It is possible that this is a broken tang, but short tangs such as this one were made that way on some early 20th C kris. I do n ot see a separate gangya, and the tang has been welded directly to the gangya rather than passing through it. Again, this suggests 20th C work.

We need some help from our Filipino colleagues to explain the significance of the motifs on this blade. Some of them appear to be influenced by a naga (snake).

Regards, Ian


P.S. My post and Detlef's crossed. I'm pleased we agree on the dating. I also agree that the blade would benefit greatly from cleaning.

[Gustav]

I agree with the dating and everything, except with the Gangya issue - this blade has a separate Gangya.

A very nice blade for its type.

[another_rick]

Thanks all for the feedback.
I too thought the ganya was separate and agree with the naga influence, hence, my original assessment.
More photos of the underside with different lighting. I don't see evidence of modern welding but forging, perhaps.
The closeup (60X) is the face of the pesi/tang, at juction/joint with blade/ganya.
Thanks again,
Rick

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Gustav

I agree with the dating and everything, except with the Gangya issue - this blade has a separate Gangya.

Jep!

[werecow]

Originally Posted by Ian

Of note is the very short tang. It is possible that this is a broken tang, but short tangs such as this one were made that way on some early 20th C kris.

That does not seem very sturdy... Would a kris with a tang that short have had baca baca for reinforcement?

[Gustav]

The tang was longer originally, of course

[werecow]

Yeah in this case it looks like it would have been longer originally. But I guess I'm asking in the abstract, given what Ian said.

[Rick]

I'm trying to figure out how the fitment was achieved at the intersection of tang and gonjo.

[another_rick]

Originally Posted by Rick

I'm trying to figure out how the fitment was achieved at the intersection of tang and gonjo.

Me too. Here's another angle.

To my eye, it passes through the gonjo. The tang thickness steps down after emerging from gonjo, and there is heavy peening on that fillet, all around. (I think this is what's getting confused for weld marks.)

Is there a way to confirm this one way or another?

Thanks again.

[Gustav]

I have seen examples of these Naga kris, where Baca Baca even weren't attached to the hilt, and that likely was original setting. So they can be purely decorative.

As is the case with one Detlef posted.

[David]

Hi (Another) Rick and welcome to the forum. Please note that i changed the spelling in your title from "keris" to "kris" to avoid confusion amongst our members. In at least this corner of the collecting universe we have adopted the spelling "kris" for the slashing blades that come from the Moro in Philippines. There is a Malay version of this style of sword, but that is generally referred to as a "sundang". Yours seems to clearly be of the Moro variety.
Regarding the gangya, i can see why some have called it one piece with the blade while others think it has a separate gangya. My theory is that it was born separate, but appears to have been welded later. It looks to me like a repair was done at some time. The tang obviously broke off at the end. It is possible it also broke where it meets the blade as well. To me it looks like it does indeed pass through the gangya, but it has also been welded into place. Welding the gangya to the blale might also make sense in this kind of repair in order to hold the who thing together. Of course if i were holding the kris i might have a different opinion about it.
I'd say it in early 20th century and was once a nice example of it's kind. If you have the skills it would be worth restoring . If it were mine i would either make or obtain a hilt for it at the very least. There are some people on this forum who might be able to help or advice you if you choose to restore the silver inlay.

[another_rick]

Thanks, David. What you're theorizing makes a lot of sense and fits with what I'm seeing.
I'll give it a good cleaning and go from there. Thanks again everybody.

[Rick]

I also notice that the ganja has been bashed pretty hard on its side near where the tang passes through. Is there evidence of the same on the other side?
I think we're looking at a repair here; no self-respecting Pande would have done that during manufacture.

[another_rick]

Originally Posted by Rick

I also notice that the ganja has been bashed pretty hard on its side near where the tang passes through. Is there evidence of the same on the other side?
I think we're looking at a repair here; no self-respecting Pande would have done that during manufacture.

Yes, but I'm quite sure those are wear marks from the baca baca. Hopefully this shows up clearly:

[Battara]

This blade is from the Maguindanao tribe. They make a lot of (if not all of) these blades. It looks like a separate ganga to me, but many times the fit is so tight that lines practically disappear.

Looks like there was one baka-baka.

The tang seems to have been broken off later, thus being short.

And they often did silver inlay on these naga blades.

[Ian]

I would need an X-ray to convince me that this gangya is separate rather than a couple of engraved lines with an extensive gap between. The most recent picture shows inlaid silver work passing across where a line of separation would be expected and there is no discontinuity of the inlaid sections to suggest any separation underneath. Speculation about the existence or not of a separation line is best answered with an X-ray, and that is a simple test. Kris without separate gangya are sometimes fitted with asang asang.

[Gustav]

It makes no sense to create a design, which goes over the separation line between blade and Gangya, and at the same time incise this separation line, in case blade wouldn't have a separate Gangya.

The Kris, which Detlef posted in this thread, also has a design going over the separation line, and has a separate Gangya (according to the owner), even better hidden.

A very thight fit on Maguindanao and Maranao blades from early 20th cent. is nothing unusual. I guess the Gangya in such cases was fitted when everything was still hot.

[Gustav]

The Baca-Baca probably was of this type:

[Ian]

Thanks Gustav. Short of pulling the kris apart and physically separating the gangya to confirm that it is indeed a separate construction, the only way to show conclusively that it is separate is via X-ray. I have done this many times and confirmed that a line of separation is readily visible when present. This is much easier than taking the hilt off.

As far as the inlaid silver decoration crossing a possible line of separation without interruption on at least two examples of this style of kris, this seems to be evidence that there is no line of separation present. Until I can find another example and X-ray it, I remain skeptical that these relatively modern kris actually have separate gangya.

Regards, Ian.

[Gustav]

Ian, the examples I posted, both have designs going over separation lines, and both have separate Gangya's, like most likely also the initial Kris of this thread has. If you need an X-ray to confirm this, I shall not stop you.

Regards,
Gustav