First attempt at etching

Kmaddock · 25th August 2016, 01:20 PM

Hi
I recently baught the attached Kyber knife
It was very rusty throughout but I decided to put in a low bid on the auction and happily it was mine
Cost was minimal, probably paid as much on diesel to pick it up as I paid for the knife.
The handle is horn and fittings in brass, blade 23 inch long.
I normally do not clean my items but this knife just had to be cleaned, I left the brass and horn un cleaned
I decided to document the process to see if I can contribute somewhat to this fantastic forum
See below the blade in original state
I worked from 000 wire wool with oil up to 2000 grit sand paper
Probably took 2 hours in total
The first set of images are the cleaning in progress
There are a good few pictures so this will take a few posts
Regards
Ken

Kmaddock · 25th August 2016, 01:33 PM

Next step was the etching
I pm'ed mariusgmioc after his recent post on etching to ask about the solution he used
I work in a lab so getting the natal solution he talked about was no problem.
I mixed up 500 ml of methanol with 20 ml of 70 percent nitric acid to produce a 4 percent solution.
I decided to rub on the enchant as I did not have a container deep enough and I did not want to use up too much solution as it can be hazardous to store.

In making up the solution it got slightly warm but if you add to much nitric the reaction can go too crazy and degrade the alcohol, giving off red fumes.
I was prepared if the solution degraded with 5 L of water to hand to dump the solution into

Gloves, goggles and lab coat were worn.

I washed blade with acetone to de grease it.

Then I rubbed the solution using a cotton swab and left to sit for 10 seconds

Then flushed with water in a sink

And dried with tissue

The process was repeated 3 times

Para film was used to protect the handle, this is a lab product like cling film

I could see the pattern emerging in 3 or 4 seconds

Nothing fancy compared to what I see on this forum but definitely a laminate blade, I think!
Results on the next post
Regards
Ken

Kmaddock · 25th August 2016, 01:37 PM

And finally what I have ended up with.
Slightly brown in places but I might have a go at polishing gently the whole blade later on.
Any comments advice welcome
Also if anyone can give an approx date on the knife I would be delighted to hear your opinions.
As I am in Ireland pictures in natural light are hard to get
Regards to all
Ken

mariusgmioc · 25th August 2016, 02:09 PM

Hello,

From what I see, you didn't polish the blade sufficiently. It should be up to grit 2000-3000 (mirror polish; some pitting here and there is acceptable but the surface between pits should be mirror polished).

Then try etching.

For lower contrast/difficult wootz I use "reversed etching." More exactly I strengthen my Nital by adding about 10-20% Perma Blue and apply the solution to obtain a uniform blackening of the whole blade. Then gently wipe off the excess black oxidation with cotton wool swabs and Pre-lim.

Good luck!

PS: Are you sure it is wootz?

Kmaddock · 25th August 2016, 03:31 PM

Hi Mariusgmioc
I do not think it is a Wootz blade
Just a standard laminate so the etching is probably as good as it will get
I enjoyed the learning experience all the same
ken

mariusgmioc · 25th August 2016, 04:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kmaddock

Hi Mariusgmioc
I do not think it is a Wootz blade
Just a standard laminate so the etching is probably as good as it will get
I enjoyed the learning experience all the same
ken

If it is not wootz nor pattern welded, then why etching?!

Roland_M · 25th August 2016, 04:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

If it is not wootz nor pattern welded, then why etching?!

Hello Marius,

laminated means pattern welded, but obviously without a specific pattern. I would call it "wild mechanical damascus".

Imho, just in my honest opinion, a salt like Iron(III)Sulfate or Sodium Persulfate may bring out more details from mechanical damascus than Nital. Nital also has a nasty tendency to penetrate deep into the surface.

Roland

A.alnakkas · 25th August 2016, 05:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roland_M

Hello Marius,

laminated means pattern welded, but obviously without a specific pattern. I would call it "wild mechanical damascus".

Imho, just in my honest opinion, a salt like Iron(III)Sulfate or Sodium Persulfate may bring out more details from mechanical damascus than Nital. Nital also has a nasty tendency to penetrate deep into the surface.

Roland

Roland, I quite like your restorations, could you post images as well?

Nice job, Ken! I need to get Nital.. very hard to get here >.<

mariusgmioc · 25th August 2016, 06:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roland_M

Hello Marius,

laminated means pattern welded, but obviously without a specific pattern. I would call it "wild mechanical damascus".

Imho, just in my honest opinion, a salt like Iron(III)Sulfate or Sodium Persulfate may bring out more details from mechanical damascus than Nital. Nital also has a nasty tendency to penetrate deep into the surface.

Roland

Hey Roland,

Pattern welded is laminated but not all laminated is pattern welded.

Pattern weleded refers to multi-layered laminated steels of diferent compositions such that the resulted surface displays a specific pattern.

San-mai is laminated but not pattern welded (as it involves only three steels) for example.

Japanese Katanas have laminated but not pattern welded blades despite displaying even the characteristic patterns (Hada), as they do not empoy diferent steels with different compositions.

Also some modern blades like for example Helle or Mora knives do have laminated but not pattern welded blades.

So calling any laminate "Damascus" whether wild or domesticated

is a little over-stretching in my oppinion.

mariusgmioc · 25th August 2016, 06:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A.alnakkas

Roland, I quite like your restorations, could you post images as well?

Nice job, Ken! I need to get Nital.. very hard to get here >.<

Hard to get in Europe as well but I order it online from the US, have it delivered to a friend of mine living there and he ships it to me in the Netherlands.

I simply don't understand why is so hard to get, as diluted Nital is almost harmless being only a little more acidic than lemon juice. But chemistry was never my cup of tea and maybe Ken can explain us more?!

Kmaddock · 26th August 2016, 12:19 AM

Hi
Methanol and nitric acid produce methyl nitrate
In strong ( greater than 10 percent volume/volume) solutions it is an explosive
So I presume this is the reason this is a restricted substance,
If you distilled off the methanol from the etchant you will end up with an explosive mixture.
Used etchant solution which has lots of metals dissolved in the solution is unstable at lower concentrations as the metals can catalyse the decomposition.
Lots on the net if you search" alcohol nitric acid solutions"
I think the advantage of using the acid in alcohol as the etching solution is there is less surface tension in the solution so it is less likely to bead on the metal surface.
Regards
Ken

mariusgmioc · 26th August 2016, 08:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kmaddock

Hi
Methanol and nitric acid produce methyl nitrate
In strong ( greater than 10 percent volume/volume) solutions it is an explosive
So I presume this is the reason this is a restricted substance,
If you distilled off the methanol from the etchant you will end up with an explosive mixture.
Used etchant solution which has lots of metals dissolved in the solution is unstable at lower concentrations as the metals can catalyse the decomposition.
Lots on the net if you search" alcohol nitric acid solutions"
I think the advantage of using the acid in alcohol as the etching solution is there is less surface tension in the solution so it is less likely to bead on the metal surface.
Regards
Ken

Thank you very much for this interesting information! This also explains why the sellers say that 5% Nital is unstable as the alcohool can evaporate and then it becomes explosive.

Roland_M · 26th August 2016, 01:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

Pattern weleded refers to multi-layered laminated steels of diferent compositions such that the resulted surface displays a specific pattern.

San-mai is laminated but not pattern welded (as it involves only three steels) for example.

Japanese Katanas have laminated but not pattern welded blades despite displaying even the characteristic patterns (Hada), as they do not empoy diferent steels with different compositions.

So calling any laminate "Damascus" whether wild or domesticated

is a little over-stretching in my oppinion.

Hello Marius,

you are right, my definition for "pattern welded" is a little too comprehensive.
It is hard to declare a clear border. For example, there is at least one type of original Katana with pattern welded steel, search for "Mokume Hada" please. On the other hand, the normal "Itame Hada" and "Masame Hade" is not pattern welded.
"Wild damascus" is my translation from the German term "wilder Damast" for every steel which was made from more than one type of steel without a specific pattern.

Roland

mariusgmioc · 26th August 2016, 02:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roland_M

Hello Marius,

you are right, my definition for "pattern welded" is a little too comprehensive.
It is hard to declare a clear border. For example, there is at least one type of original Katana with pattern welded steel, search for "Mokume Hada" please. On the other hand, the normal "Itame Hada" and "Masame Hade" is not pattern welded.
"Wild damascus" is my translation from the German term "wilder Damast" for every steel which was made from more than one type of steel without a specific pattern.

Roland

Hello Roland and thank you for the clarifications!

However, your interpretation of Mokume Hada but also... on second thoughts... my general interpretation of Hada are rather debatable.

The only diference beteween Mokume Hada and Itame Hada is the way they are hammered resulting in different appearance, but the composition is exactly the same. So if we say that one is pattern welded, then the other must be pattern welded as well.

On the other hand, since Hada is practically the pattern resulted from multiple layers of steel laminated together, and the resulted pattern is purposedly achieved, maybe all hada should be considered pattern welded.

Battara · 27th August 2016, 04:37 PM

I guess for my comfort and clarity, keeping Japanese terms for nihonto and the wootz terms for wootz (or pattern weld etc.) is the best way to go........

Battara · 27th August 2016, 04:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kmaddock

Hi
Methanol and nitric acid produce methyl nitrate
In strong ( greater than 10 percent volume/volume) solutions it is an explosive
So I presume this is the reason this is a restricted substance,
If you distilled off the methanol from the etchant you will end up with an explosive mixture.
Used etchant solution which has lots of metals dissolved in the solution is unstable at lower concentrations as the metals can catalyse the decomposition.
Lots on the net if you search" alcohol nitric acid solutions"
I think the advantage of using the acid in alcohol as the etching solution is there is less surface tension in the solution so it is less likely to bead on the metal surface.
Regards
Ken

Thank you so much! I had no idea! (not that I use this solution.....)

mariusgmioc · 27th August 2016, 09:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

I guess for my comfort and clarity, keeping Japanese terms for nihonto and the wootz terms for wootz (or pattern weld etc.) is the best way to go........

I fully agree with your suggestion about terminology.

Regarding your second posting: what etching agent were you using?!

25th August 2016, 01:20 PM	#1
Kmaddock Member Join Date: May 2014 Location: Ireland Posts: 545	First attempt at etching Hi I recently baught the attached Kyber knife It was very rusty throughout but I decided to put in a low bid on the auction and happily it was mine Cost was minimal, probably paid as much on diesel to pick it up as I paid for the knife. The handle is horn and fittings in brass, blade 23 inch long. I normally do not clean my items but this knife just had to be cleaned, I left the brass and horn un cleaned I decided to document the process to see if I can contribute somewhat to this fantastic forum See below the blade in original state I worked from 000 wire wool with oil up to 2000 grit sand paper Probably took 2 hours in total The first set of images are the cleaning in progress There are a good few pictures so this will take a few posts Regards Ken Attached Images

25th August 2016, 01:33 PM	#2
Kmaddock Member Join Date: May 2014 Location: Ireland Posts: 545	Next step was the etching I pm'ed mariusgmioc after his recent post on etching to ask about the solution he used I work in a lab so getting the natal solution he talked about was no problem. I mixed up 500 ml of methanol with 20 ml of 70 percent nitric acid to produce a 4 percent solution. I decided to rub on the enchant as I did not have a container deep enough and I did not want to use up too much solution as it can be hazardous to store. In making up the solution it got slightly warm but if you add to much nitric the reaction can go too crazy and degrade the alcohol, giving off red fumes. I was prepared if the solution degraded with 5 L of water to hand to dump the solution into Gloves, goggles and lab coat were worn. I washed blade with acetone to de grease it. Then I rubbed the solution using a cotton swab and left to sit for 10 seconds Then flushed with water in a sink And dried with tissue The process was repeated 3 times Para film was used to protect the handle, this is a lab product like cling film I could see the pattern emerging in 3 or 4 seconds Nothing fancy compared to what I see on this forum but definitely a laminate blade, I think! Results on the next post Regards Ken Attached Images

25th August 2016, 01:37 PM	#3
Kmaddock Member Join Date: May 2014 Location: Ireland Posts: 545	And finally what I have ended up with. Slightly brown in places but I might have a go at polishing gently the whole blade later on. Any comments advice welcome Also if anyone can give an approx date on the knife I would be delighted to hear your opinions. As I am in Ireland pictures in natural light are hard to get Regards to all Ken Attached Images

25th August 2016, 02:09 PM	#4
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,912	Hello, From what I see, you didn't polish the blade sufficiently. It should be up to grit 2000-3000 (mirror polish; some pitting here and there is acceptable but the surface between pits should be mirror polished). Then try etching. For lower contrast/difficult wootz I use "reversed etching." More exactly I strengthen my Nital by adding about 10-20% Perma Blue and apply the solution to obtain a uniform blackening of the whole blade. Then gently wipe off the excess black oxidation with cotton wool swabs and Pre-lim. Good luck! PS: Are you sure it is wootz?

25th August 2016, 03:31 PM	#5
Kmaddock Member Join Date: May 2014 Location: Ireland Posts: 545	Hi Mariusgmioc I do not think it is a Wootz blade Just a standard laminate so the etching is probably as good as it will get I enjoyed the learning experience all the same ken

26th August 2016, 12:19 AM	#11
Kmaddock Member Join Date: May 2014 Location: Ireland Posts: 545	Hi Methanol and nitric acid produce methyl nitrate In strong ( greater than 10 percent volume/volume) solutions it is an explosive So I presume this is the reason this is a restricted substance, If you distilled off the methanol from the etchant you will end up with an explosive mixture. Used etchant solution which has lots of metals dissolved in the solution is unstable at lower concentrations as the metals can catalyse the decomposition. Lots on the net if you search" alcohol nitric acid solutions" I think the advantage of using the acid in alcohol as the etching solution is there is less surface tension in the solution so it is less likely to bead on the metal surface. Regards Ken

27th August 2016, 04:37 PM	#15
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,345	I guess for my comfort and clarity, keeping Japanese terms for nihonto and the wootz terms for wootz (or pattern weld etc.) is the best way to go........