Could anybody more closely allocate this Hussar sword ?

Martin Lubojacky · 6th April 2010, 12:48 PM

Hello,
I wonder if anybody could classify the saber. Is it Austro - Hungarian ? Many thanks, Martin

Jim McDougall · 7th April 2010, 01:59 AM

Hi Martin,
This is a great sabre and of extremely desirable form which appears to be Austrian from about mid to third quarter 18th century. This 'rayed' motif was very popular in these times in the motif on sabres in the Austro-Hungarian Empire, and similiar is still seen used on Hungarian infantry officers sabres M1811 (type II). This is shown in Eduard Wagner's "Cut & Thrust Weapons" (p.414, plate 44).
The rectangular ear and langet crosspiece is of the style seen on Austrian cavalry sabres and the straight outward quillon terminal also is characteristic.
There is a rather difficult to locate reference on Austrian weapons, the author is Dolleczek and is often cited in Wagner. I have seen pages of this reference and though it has been some time, it seems the line drawings reflected these heavy, chopping blades of this form. It is believed that these heavy 'hatchet tip' type blades were one of the primary prototypes for the M1796 British light cavalry sabres.

Austrian cavalry weapons of this period are highly sought after, with this being one of the driving forces, with the M1769 pallasche also influencing the British M1796 heavy cavalry sword.

It seems I have seen other sabres with this rayed scabbard mount motif with hilt elements en suite on sabres identified either as Austrian or Hungarian of this period. It is difficult to draw a line as they are so similar.

All best regards,
Jim

Martin Lubojacky · 7th April 2010, 10:52 AM

Hi Jim,

Thank you very much for analysis. I will try to find the book by Konopsky and Moudry for you, when I am in the Czech Republic this summer.
(Your mention of M1769 pallasch reminds me of a holidays several years ago, when I was trawelling with family around Northern Moravia. It happened that time, that I was on the right place on right time, but without money. In one small antique shop I saw this pallasch in a very good condition and complete with original scabbard - they were asking the price only around 500 USD, but it was rather spare time for us and I could not afford to buy it. From that time I have never seen so nice piece and if yes - without sheath and five times more expensive. I regret this until now.)
Best regards,
Martin

Jim McDougall · 7th April 2010, 09:31 PM

Hi Martin,
Thank you so much for the very kind offer! and Im glad I could give some help with this, again my congratulations on a superb hussar sabre!!!

Auughh! To hear of such a deal on one of these M1769 pallasches is incredible. I remember trying to find one during research on the British M1796 disc hilt heavy cavalry swords about 15 years ago, and almost had one. Even then the prices were incredible, over a thousand dollars. I dont think Ive ever seen more than several over the years available, and I would imagine much more so in less travelled sources in Europe.

It is good to see this sabre find a home with someone with such close ties to its original ancestry. Very well done

All the best,
Jim

Richard · 9th April 2010, 10:00 PM

Here's one:

Ian Knight · 11th April 2010, 06:01 PM

Lovely sabre Martin. Has the blade been shortened?
Ian

Jim McDougall · 11th April 2010, 07:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richard

Here's one:

Wow!!!! Now thats what Im talkin about Richard!!! Absolutely beautiful

Thank you so much for sharing that here,
All the best,
Jim

Martin Lubojacky · 12th April 2010, 09:13 AM

Hi Ian,

I don´t know as I bought it while I am in Africa and the sword was sent directly to Prague (and I am looking forward to seeing it in natura). But I don´t thing so. It could be fallacy, Enclosed please find another 2 photos.

Richard, thank you also for the photo of the pallasch

Regards,

Martin

Ian Knight · 14th April 2010, 01:18 PM

Hello Martin,
It doesn't look like the blade has been shortened after seeing your last two photos. It does have a really meaty looking blade.
Ian

Richard · 16th April 2010, 08:11 PM

Here's something quite similar:

http://us.patrice-reboul.com/preboul...cument&lang=EN

Lee · 24th November 2012, 05:52 PM

Received from a non-registered reader:

I have a copy of the Dolleczek book they mention ... the sabre is from the 1748-68 period as it is fairly plain, but brass mounted. It would appear to be an NCO's weapon as the men tended to have plain scabbards.

Jim McDougall · 24th November 2012, 09:13 PM

Thank you so much for posting this Lee, and my thanks to the anonymous donor!!!
Its great that our 'cold case' system works so well, and that it is clear that people our still reading our ols threads even years later. I hope all the fantastic material archived here will stand for many years as a useful resource for those inclined to study arms.

All best regards,
Jim

Martin Lubojacky · 25th November 2012, 01:01 PM

Thank you Lee.
This sabre is my "pleasure". The mountings are silver plated brass.
Regards,
Martin

terry1956 · 4th December 2012, 09:08 PM

Hi, here are two of my sabres, they are both takes on the earlier austro hungarian sabres. The first is a french sabre,from around 1767 and you can see that it takes its form from the earlier weapon. The second is the 1796 british light cavalry sabre and again you can see the earlier sabres form in the blade. Michael

6th April 2010, 12:48 PM	#1
Martin Lubojacky Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Czech Republic Posts: 845	Could anybody more closely allocate this Hussar sword ? Hello, I wonder if anybody could classify the saber. Is it Austro - Hungarian ? Many thanks, Martin Attached Images

9th April 2010, 10:00 PM	#5
Richard Member Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Aquae Sulis, UK Posts: 46	Here's one: Attached Images

11th April 2010, 06:01 PM	#6
Ian Knight Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: East Sussex, England. Posts: 103	Lovely sabre Martin. Has the blade been shortened? Ian Last edited by Ian Knight; 11th April 2010 at 07:44 PM. Reason: spelling mistake

12th April 2010, 09:13 AM	#8
Martin Lubojacky Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Czech Republic Posts: 845	Hi Ian, I don´t know as I bought it while I am in Africa and the sword was sent directly to Prague (and I am looking forward to seeing it in natura). But I don´t thing so. It could be fallacy, Enclosed please find another 2 photos. Richard, thank you also for the photo of the pallasch Regards, Martin Attached Images

24th November 2012, 05:52 PM	#11
Lee EAAF Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Upstate New York, USA Posts: 970	Follow-up Received from a non-registered reader: I have a copy of the Dolleczek book they mention ... the sabre is from the 1748-68 period as it is fairly plain, but brass mounted. It would appear to be an NCO's weapon as the men tended to have plain scabbards.

7th April 2010, 01:59 AM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,670	Hi Martin, This is a great sabre and of extremely desirable form which appears to be Austrian from about mid to third quarter 18th century. This 'rayed' motif was very popular in these times in the motif on sabres in the Austro-Hungarian Empire, and similiar is still seen used on Hungarian infantry officers sabres M1811 (type II). This is shown in Eduard Wagner's "Cut & Thrust Weapons" (p.414, plate 44). The rectangular ear and langet crosspiece is of the style seen on Austrian cavalry sabres and the straight outward quillon terminal also is characteristic. There is a rather difficult to locate reference on Austrian weapons, the author is Dolleczek and is often cited in Wagner. I have seen pages of this reference and though it has been some time, it seems the line drawings reflected these heavy, chopping blades of this form. It is believed that these heavy 'hatchet tip' type blades were one of the primary prototypes for the M1796 British light cavalry sabres. Austrian cavalry weapons of this period are highly sought after, with this being one of the driving forces, with the M1769 pallasche also influencing the British M1796 heavy cavalry sword. It seems I have seen other sabres with this rayed scabbard mount motif with hilt elements en suite on sabres identified either as Austrian or Hungarian of this period. It is difficult to draw a line as they are so similar. All best regards, Jim

7th April 2010, 10:52 AM	#3
Martin Lubojacky Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Czech Republic Posts: 845	Hi Jim, Thank you very much for analysis. I will try to find the book by Konopsky and Moudry for you, when I am in the Czech Republic this summer. (Your mention of M1769 pallasch reminds me of a holidays several years ago, when I was trawelling with family around Northern Moravia. It happened that time, that I was on the right place on right time, but without money. In one small antique shop I saw this pallasch in a very good condition and complete with original scabbard - they were asking the price only around 500 USD, but it was rather spare time for us and I could not afford to buy it. From that time I have never seen so nice piece and if yes - without sheath and five times more expensive. I regret this until now.) Best regards, Martin

7th April 2010, 09:31 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,670	Hi Martin, Thank you so much for the very kind offer! and Im glad I could give some help with this, again my congratulations on a superb hussar sabre!!! Auughh! To hear of such a deal on one of these M1769 pallasches is incredible. I remember trying to find one during research on the British M1796 disc hilt heavy cavalry swords about 15 years ago, and almost had one. Even then the prices were incredible, over a thousand dollars. I dont think Ive ever seen more than several over the years available, and I would imagine much more so in less travelled sources in Europe. It is good to see this sabre find a home with someone with such close ties to its original ancestry. Very well done All the best, Jim

14th April 2010, 01:18 PM	#9
Ian Knight Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: East Sussex, England. Posts: 103	Hello Martin, It doesn't look like the blade has been shortened after seeing your last two photos. It does have a really meaty looking blade. Ian

16th April 2010, 08:11 PM	#10
Richard Member Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Aquae Sulis, UK Posts: 46	Here's something quite similar: http://us.patrice-reboul.com/preboul...cument&lang=EN

24th November 2012, 09:13 PM	#12
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,670	Thank you so much for posting this Lee, and my thanks to the anonymous donor!!! Its great that our 'cold case' system works so well, and that it is clear that people our still reading our ols threads even years later. I hope all the fantastic material archived here will stand for many years as a useful resource for those inclined to study arms. All best regards, Jim

25th November 2012, 01:01 PM	#13
Martin Lubojacky Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Czech Republic Posts: 845	Thank you Lee. This sabre is my "pleasure". The mountings are silver plated brass. Regards, Martin

4th December 2012, 09:08 PM	#14
terry1956 Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: yeovil, somerset, uk Posts: 75	a follow on Hi, here are two of my sabres, they are both takes on the earlier austro hungarian sabres. The first is a french sabre,from around 1767 and you can see that it takes its form from the earlier weapon. The second is the 1796 british light cavalry sabre and again you can see the earlier sabres form in the blade. Michael Attached Images