Spanish Gun Lock for ID

[rickystl]

Hello all. I'm doing this for a friend that is not a member of this Forum - yet.
The photos are of a Spanish miquelet lock on a fowler he owns (wish it was mine ). To me, this is a turn of the 19th Century lock. The rest of the gun looks the same. Can anyone make out the name on the lockplate? Strangely, the frizzen spring seems to be covering up part of the name. Thanks for any help. Rick.

[rickystl]

Wooops. Forgot to include the photos.

[Matchlock]

Hi Rick,

I confirm your dating of the gun although the scrolled trigger and the curved lower outline of the lock seem to suggest a date of the late 1st half of the 18th c.

I referred to all my gunmakers names sources but cannot see a chance to identify this special signature without taking off the frizzen spring.

It is not as unusual as you may assume to find lock signatures partially covered by functional parts as the lock plate was signed before the assembling process.

Best,
Michael

[rickystl]

Hi Michael. Thanks for your response. OK. Yes, maybe last half of the 18th Century. I'll get him to photo the entire gun. And, I'll see if he can remouve the frizzen spring. OR, better yet, send the gun to me and I'll remove it Rick.

[Fernando K]

Hola, Rick

La llave (lock) es probablemente una llave (lock) construída en Italia, con influencia de la llave (lock) "a la Romana" (roman lock) y de la llave (lock) de chispa clásica (flntlock). Sería lo que los españoles llamaban " a las 3 modas".

De llave (cock) "a la romana" toma la disposición del muelle del rastrillo (frizzen), que está situado delante del resorte Hola, Rick

La llave (lock) es probablemente una llave (lock) construída en Italia, con influencia de la llave (lock) "a la Romana" (roman lock) y de la llave (lock) de chispa clásica (flntlock). Sería mayor y no queda oculto por la brida (bridge) de la cazoleta (pan) que en el miguele (miquelet) clásico es postizo.

De la llave de chispa (flintlock) toma la brida ( bridge) del rastrillo (frizzen) que es fijada a la cazoleta (pan) y no postiza: y la mandíbula superior, que no tiene apendice que se introduce en la mandibula inferior o en el cuerpo del gatillo (cock), sino que corre en la su columna.

El método de disparo es el del miquelete clásico.

LAVIN , en su apendice, pagina 239, trae la tarifa fijada para una llave (cock) "a las 3 modas": "Plantilla con el estribillo en la cazoleta"

También algunos armeros españoles fabricaron esta llave.

Afectuosamente. Fernando


Hello, Rick

The Key (lock) is probably a key (lock), built in Italy, influenced by the key (lock) "to La Romana" (Roman lock) and key (lock) classic spark (flntlock). It would be what the Spanish called "fashion at 3."

Key (cock) "to the Roman" takes the provision of spring rake (frizzes), which is located opposite the spring Hello, Rick

The Key (lock) is probably a key (lock), built in Italy, influenced by the key (lock) "to La Romana" (Roman lock) and key (lock) classic spark (flntlock). Would be greater and is not hidden by the flange (bridge) of the bowl (pan) in the Michael (Miquelet) classic is fake.

From flintlock (flintlock) takes the clamp (bridge) the rake (frizzes) which is fixed to the pan (bread) and not fake, and the upper jaw, which has no appendix that is inserted into the lower jaw or the body of the trigger (cock), but runs in his column.

The shooting method is the classic Miquelet.

Lavin, in his appendix, page 239, bringing the tariff set for a key (cock) "at 3 fashion": "Talk with the chorus in the bowl"

Also some Spanish gunsmiths produced the key.

Sincerely. Fernando

[fernando]

I have contacted a Spanish specialist.
His impressions coincide a lot with those of Fernando K in that, this lock may have been made in Italy.
Even the way the mark is engraved on the plate doesn't look like a Spanish work, neither its initials sound Spanish.
Although the mechanism complex looks interesting, the finishing reminds the 'easy' way of a (Spanish) Colonial example.
Fernando K is more precise in detailing this lock system ... pass the rough translation. The system called 'a las tres modas' (three fashions) is a fusion of 'a la Romana', classic flintlock and Miquelete, as this example appears to be.

[Fernando K]

Hello, all

Sorry by the "rough translation", but I do not spoke english. I need the translator.....

Sincerely, Fernando K

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by rickystl

Hello all. I'm doing this for a friend that is not a member of this Forum - yet.
The photos are of a Spanish miquelet lock on a fowler he owns (wish it was mine ). To me, this is a turn of the 19th Century lock. The rest of the gun looks the same. Can anyone make out the name on the lockplate? Strangely, the frizzen spring seems to be covering up part of the name. Thanks for any help. Rick.

Why are these guys so afraid to join?

[rickystl]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Why are these guys so afraid to join?

Hi Jim. My instincts tell me he just won't sit down and take the time?? Rick.

[rickystl]

Hello Fernando and Fernando K !!! Thank you for your responces. Attached are some additional photos. This gun looks both Italian and Spanish - at first glance. The overall stock architecture and barrel bands look Spanish. But, yes, I see the Italian influences elsewhere. Same with the lock. And, good point: The signature "style" on the lock does not look Spanish. Wish I had this gun to study and take better photos. Rick.

[fernando]

Quite intricate detail work ... as with the lock.
But again, the finishing is not top class ... don't you agree?

[rickystl]

Originally Posted by fernando

Quite intricate detail work ... as with the lock.
But again, the finishing is not top class ... don't you agree?

Yes, I agree. Maybe it's just the photography, but it looks as though some of the brass castings were not finished very well? Too many "burrs" left on the metal. I know he is out of town at the moment. I hope when he returns he'll remove the frizzen spring so we can have a better look at the lock signature.
Hmmmm, maybe I can talk him into sending the gun to me?
I would sure like to study it further. Rick.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by rickystl

Hi Jim. My instincts tell me he just won't sit down and take the time?? Rick.

Hi Rick, yup I guess it does take time I guess thats what makes me appreciate you guys with some drive! Keep up the good work OK?!!!

All the best,
Jim

[RDGAC]

I would also suggest that joining a place like Ethno Arms can actually be quite daunting. There are a lot of obviously very expert lads and lasses on this site, and the discussion often veers off into byways and backwaters of history; not to mention discussions of chemistry (metallurgy especially) and physics (ballistics both internal and external, huzzah!) which are probably outside many people's ken - certainly mine!

Not that I wish to suggest that the forum is so off-putting as to discourage its growth, of course, but nonetheless. I certainly found myself a little nervous making my first posts, and expecting to be blasted across the room by the waves of disapproval at my actions from my monitor.

- Meredydd

[fernando]

Originally Posted by RDGAC

I would also suggest that joining a place like Ethno Arms can actually be quite daunting. There are a lot of obviously very expert lads and lasses on this site, and the discussion often veers off into byways and backwaters of history; not to mention discussions of chemistry (metallurgy especially) and physics (ballistics both internal and external, huzzah!) which are probably outside many people's ken - certainly mine!

Not that I wish to suggest that the forum is so off-putting as to discourage its growth, of course, but nonetheless. I certainly found myself a little nervous making my first posts, and expecting to be blasted across the room by the waves of disapproval at my actions from my monitor.

- Meredydd

Wow Meredydd, what a dramatic and anguishing perspective, wouldn't you agree?
Let me post a few lines to, in the least, regain some of the attraction which this forum is so hopefully persuaded to create, counterbalancing any of those 'fears' that may become contagious to newcomers .
For certain that the range of members of our community is composed by the most varied levels of knowledge, from plain enthusiasts (the larger number, my humble self included) to experts in this or that area. Also certain is that any of us may post the best we can offer that no one qualifies to criticise us for as much inaccurate as our impressions may be.
After all, there is only one thing we (and experts) certainly now, which is that "we kow nothing". Why presuming to know more than Plato ?
Yours humbly

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[rickystl]

Hello all. Well, here's an update. He has removed the lock from the gun. The mainspring is too close to the lockplate to make out the rest of the name. So, he is going going to a qualified antique arms gunsmith to have the lock dis-assembled so we can read the rest of the name, and a "minor" cleaning of the inside. (I told him he didn't have to go to all that trouble. Just box the whole gun up and send it to me. Oh, well. Meantime, here are some more photos of the lock. I'll report back in a couple more weeks. Thanks, Rick.

By the way, go to my other new Post and look at the cool battle axe.

[RDGAC]

Originally Posted by fernando

Wow Meredydd, what a dramatic and anguishing perspective, wouldn't you agree?
Let me post a few lines to, in the least, regain some of the attraction which this forum is so hopefully persuaded to create, counterbalancing any of those 'fears' that may become contagious to newcomers .
For certain that the range of members of our community is composed by the most varied levels of knowledge, from plain enthusiasts (the larger number, my humble self included) to experts in this or that area. Also certain is that any of us may post the best we can offer that no one qualifies to criticise us for as much inaccurate as our impressions may be.
After all, there is only one thing we (and experts) certainly now, which is that "we kow nothing". Why presuming to know more than Plato ?
Yours humbly

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Fernando, allow me to agree with your optimism! I didn't mean to say that the place is unattractive; more that it can be a bit intimidating to a certain breed of person.

I think the best way to think of it is by referring to school days, or something similar; imagine being young and ignorant and having to go up to some Prof's office to ask what you suspect to be a very stupid question. Climbing the stairs is always a bit of a worrying experience, and the Prof is sometimes a bit bluff at first; but when you talk to him, you get to know that he's a genial old fellow who loves his subject. That, for me at least, is my experience; and, like our metaphorical pupil, I am far richer for having climbed the stairs!

[fernando]

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