Two peninsula keris patrem??

[Sajen]

I have bought recently two small obviously Peninsula keris. The blades are rather simple but both seems to have some age. One have a very good carved horn handle and a good worked silver pendoko. The one with wooden hilt have a iras blade with 5 luk and the other one a 7 luk blade. The one with horn hilt and warangka are 27 cm (10,6 inch) overall and the one with wooden hilt are 25 cm (9,8 inch). Who can give me more informations about this two? Are this really keris patrem or early tourist keris?

Thank's in advance,

Detlef

[Sajen]

Here the pictures from the other one.

[Sajen]

100 hits and no hint?

[Marcokeris]

IMO (from pics) the two keris are not tourist keris. I don't know if they are patrem but they seem not made for turist market.

[BluErf]

These small kerises are common in the Peninsula. They are called keris selit, and are specially as dress kerises, for formal events. I think I mentioned this in another thread recently.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Marcokeris

IMO (from pics) the two keris are not tourist keris. I don't know if they are patrem but they seem not made for turist market.

Hi Marco,

thank you. This have been my guess also but don't have been sure.

Regards,

Detlef

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by BluErf

These small kerises are common in the Peninsula. They are called keris selit, and are specially as dress kerises, for formal events. I think I mentioned this in another thread recently.

Hello Kai Wee,

thank you very much. Maybe I haven't seen the other thread, otherwise I don't ask. So I understand now why the blades are so simple. Do you have a presumption how old they might be?

Regards,

Detlef

[David]

It might just be the photo, but it appears to me that the gonjo on the second keris might be a replacement. In the photo at least it looks like a newer piece in a different quality of iron. If this is the case it would seem much less likely to be a tourist item.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by David

It might just be the photo, but it appears to me that the gonjo on the second keris might be a replacement. In the photo at least it looks like a newer piece in a different quality of iron. If this is the case it would seem much less likely to be a tourist item.

Good observation David. It is indeed a different quality of iron but I am not sure if it is a replacemt since it seems worked for this blade. In my mind by this case are many Bali blades where the gonjo is worked from a different quality of iron so I am not sure if it is a replacement.

[David]

Originally Posted by Sajen

Good observation David. It is indeed a different quality of iron but I am not sure if it is a replacemt since it seems worked for this blade. In my mind by this case are many Bali blades where the gonjo is worked from a different quality of iron so I am not sure if it is a replacement.

Sorry, you'd have to show that to me in examples Sajen. AFAIK the gonjo is pretty much always made from the same billet as the blade even in Bali blades. At least every Bali blade in my collections has a gonjo made of the same quality iron.
That the gonjo seems to work on you blade in no way indicates to me that it is not a replacement. It merely indicates that it was replaced by someone with a little bit of skill. It would, after all, not be the intention to create a replacement gonjo that didn't work for the blade, would it?

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by David

Sorry, you'd have to show that to me in examples Sajen. AFAIK the gonjo is pretty much always made from the same billet as the blade even in Bali blades. At least every Bali blade in my collections has a gonjo made of the same quality iron.

I will take some pictures later. Many of my Bali blades have a gonjo from pure iron (just black) while the blade have pamor.

That the gonjo seems to work on you blade in no way indicates to me that it is not a replacement. It merely indicates that it was replaced by someone with a little bit of skill. It would, after all, not be the intention to create a replacement gonjo that didn't work for the blade, would it?

Of course you're right!

[David]

"Many of my Bali blades have a gonjo from pure iron (just black) while the blade have pamor."

I don't think this indictes that they are made of a different quality iron, just a part that contains no pamor. This was done in some cases, as i understand it, to hide any clues of what pamor your blade had for others while you blade was sheathed. It seems to me that most old Bali blades are like this so when i see a Bali blade described as old that does have pamor on the gonjo i am immediately suspicious.

[Sajen]

Here two examples from Bali blades where the gonjo is just black, means without pamor, while the blades have pamor. I have seen this by many Bali blades but I haven't seen enough Peninsula blades to say it's common.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by David

"Many of my Bali blades have a gonjo from pure iron (just black) while the blade have pamor."

I don't think this indictes that they are made of a different quality iron, just a part that contains no pamor. This was done in some cases, as i understand it, to hide any clues of what pamor your blade had for others while you blade was sheathed. It seems to me that most old Bali blades are like this so when i see a Bali blade described as old that does have pamor on the gonjo i am immediately suspicious.

Yes, you might be right again. And it is true, the most recent "Bali" blades have a gonjo with pamor. But I have also old blades where the gonjo have pamor.

Regards,

Detlef

[David]

Originally Posted by Sajen

Yes, you might be right again. And it is true, the most recent "Bali" blades have a gonjo with pamor. But I have also old blades where the gonjo have pamor.

Yes, is you look closely you will see that the iron on both the pamored blade and on the gonjo is the same iron, just lacking the inclusion of pamor on the gonjo.
If you look at your blade and gonjo you can see that they have a completely different grain structure, or at least it appears that way in the photos.
I have asked this question about pamorless Bali gonjos before and i don't think i have gotten any clear conclusions from it. I have seen some older Bali style blades that i believe are actually Lombok blades that do have pamor on the gonjo. I don't know when black gonjos became the popular thing in Bali, if it was an across the board rule or if there was a time previous when it was popular for Bali gonjos to have pamor.