Portuguese cavalry troopers sabre.

[Tim Simmons]

I am new to European + style of swords. I now have this Toledo export sabre. Has seen some better days with light pitting over most of the blade. Said to be influenced by the British m1821 LC sabre. I am new to these blades, It was listed as 1890s. To my eye the blade although a troopers blade so plain and functional with no frills or pomposity, is hand forged? The uneven fuller and there is some wavyness to the spine and edge. Hard to show with my photo abilities. By the 1890s Teledo sword makers had powered mill rollers. So I am assuming this sword blade is quite a bit older? It is in serviable condition. The hilt has some interesting marks on it. I made the leather washer. I don't like the hilt bashing asgainst the scabbard. I know there are some very well read members when it comes to swords like this, info please.

[Tim Simmons]

With a hand forged blade this could quite possibly be from the Peninsular war. It is not the law that these sword only came into existance as a consequence of the British m1821.

[Radboud]

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

With a hand forged blade this could quite possibly be from the Peninsular war. It is not the law that these sword only came into existance as a consequence of the British m1821.

"Hand forged" is quite an open term. Most all blades are made by a human operator drawing the bar stock through the powered press by hand. They use dies in the press to get the fullers and overall shape correct. Then they are hand ground on grinding wheels to get the final shape.

Even before steam engines, water powered hammers were used for the vast majority of the heavy hitting.

The days of making sword blades with just two men and their hammers were long passed by the time this blade was made (and that includes the Napoleonic wars). If anything, the sheer number needed to supply an army necessicated more advanced production methods.

Looking at your sword, the blade profile is incorrect for the era of the Napoleonic wars, at this time fullers extended almost to the hilt and sabres tended to have more curve.

You can be confident that your blade is of 19th Century production. It has a later period scabbard with the single ring and if it's a good fit then they were made together.

[Tim Simmons]

Yes powered hammers are an ancient thing. What I am on about is what seems to be the lack of use of forming rollers. This is an extract from the link.

Crop to billet.

Ryder the billet to the blade’s length and reduce its thickness.

Roll the ‘rough blade’ to pattern (there were rolls for all patterns of blades except some which were entirely hand forged).

Ryder the tang, shaping and drawing it out.

Hand-hammer the top leading edge.

Thread the tang (military: ¼ inch Whitworth thread).

Grind.

Shoulder file.

Curve the blade (if the pattern called for the blade to be curved).

Harden.

Temper and straighten.

Strike and deflection test.

Proof stamp.

Number the blade.

Polish.

Etch.

Final inspection.

Pass to fitters.

https://www.fordemilitaryantiques.co...lkinson-latham

My sword may fit in the {there were rolls for all patterns of blades except some which were entirely hand forged} form of manufacture.

[Tim Simmons]

https://www.google.com/search?q=pert...MAUf65UQ,st:55

Rollers.

[Tim Simmons]

Just found out that Ballesteros is actually the Royal Arms Factory, which by the late 19th century was using industrial equipment.

[Tim Simmons]

Well it is pre 1868 as that is when modenisation and new machines tools were installed at the Royal Arms Factory.

[Radboud]

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

Well it is pre 1868 as that is when modenisation and new machines tools were installed at the Royal Arms Factory.

Or it's just polished / finished to a lower standard. Or it's been repolished later on.

[toaster5sqn]

Doesn't look hand forged to me, but it does look like apprentice McNumpty's first day on the grinding wheel.

[Tim Simmons]

I can add these as they have been sold. Two more examples of apprentice McNumpty and repolisher handy work. There must be more than one McNumpty around .

https://www.antique-swords.co.uk/ant...edo-p148004024

https://www.invaluable.com/auction-l...9i65IPiBQjxjoI

[Radboud]

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

There must be more than one McNumpty around .

This I can confirm as a verified fact.

But seriously Tim, all these examples show is that they weren't overly concerned with even grinds and the swords were made to a budget (big surprise there for trooper swords).

This isn't evidence of hand forgeing, what I'm seeing in the photos is uneven grinds which are all done by hand as both of us noted earlier.

And to be honest, I've seen (own) older blades with better/cleaner grinds than these.

But knock yourself out, believe what you want to believe.

[midelburgo]

Ballesteros was a private enterprise and had nothing to do with the Fabrica de Toledo, only the same location.

They made a couple of models for Portuguese army and for some Spanish local police.

[Tim Simmons]

Ballesteros were a private frim, however King Charles the 111 brought all manufacturing under the Royal Arms so Ballesteros were under contract. The Royal Sword Factory of Toledo in 1761.

[midelburgo]

Since 1820 it was allowed that other cutlers could make and comercialize swords outside of the oficial centers.

For example, Ibarzabal could sell complete swords from that year, made in Eibar. Some of his pieces are marked Fabrica de Eibar in the 1870s.

The swords from Ballesteros are from around 1890.

[Tim Simmons]

Thank you.

[Tim Simmons]

I do not know how realvant this is ? seem to be going round in circles. No mention of 1820 changes?

https://www.angelfire.com/wa/swordcollector/toledo.html

Is AI all we can take as knowledge??

AI Overview

Based on auction and collector records, Ballesteros was a prominent private arms manufacturer in 19th-century Toledo that operated alongside the much larger national-level Royal Arms Factory. The Ballesteros company specialized in high-quality military swords, like cavalry sabers, as indicated by existing collectors' items.
Ballesteros as a private maker
Unlike the Royal Arms Factory (Real Fábrica de Armas), which was a state-run enterprise, Ballesteros was a private manufacturer.
Auction listings and collectors' discussions identify specific 19th-century Spanish military swords, such as cavalry sabers, that are marked with "Armas Toledo Ballesteros".
Ballesteros operated within Toledo's tradition of master swordsmiths, producing weaponry for both military and civilian use, and his work is highly regarded by collectors.
The larger context of 19th-century Toledo sword production
The Ballesteros factory was part of a broader sword-making tradition in Toledo that underwent significant changes in the 19th century.
Royal Factory dominance: King Charles III established the Royal Sword Factory in 1761 to preserve Toledo's legendary sword-making heritage. By the 19th century, this factory was the main center of production, bringing together master smiths and modernizing the process.
Expansion and mechanization: Production at the Royal Factory expanded in the 19th century to include military swords, sabers, and bayonets. By 1868, new machine tools powered by the Tagus River significantly boosted production, though traditional forging methods continued for a time.
Private craftsmen vs. mass production: While the state factory standardized and industrialized the process, private artisans like Ballesteros continued to operate. Ballesteros swords demonstrate that high-quality, custom work existed alongside the mass-produced weapons of the Royal Factory.
Market changes: As firearms replaced swords as the primary military weapon, factories like Ballesteros and the Royal Factory adapted by producing both military blades and collectible pieces.

[Tim Simmons]

very different finish to the blade on this examples to all the others I have added to this thread.

https://auctionet.com/en/2760914-por...images#image_0

So sorry if I am boring the hind legs of a donkey.