GARDEN & SON - ROBt. S. GARDEN

[scinde]

With reference to British swords, I am following a line of research on the subject of swords sold under the name of GARDEN.

The firm was widely known as Army Accoutrement Makers & Saddlers, and they were involved in the sale of such merchandise as well as of firearms and swords to officers and some regiments of the EIC and Indian Army.

The four main trading names and addresses are as follows:

- Garden 200 Piccadilly London (Hugh Garden)
- Garden & Son 200 Piccadilly London (Hugh & Robert Spring Garden)
Hugh Garden he died 1851, his son carried on.
- Robt. S. Garden 200 Piccadilly London (Robert Spring Garden)
- Robt. S. Garden 29 Piccadilly London (Robert Spring Garden)

Would be most grateful to hear from anyone who has a sword or swords sold by this firm, with a view to getting specific details of the type of sword (hilt & blade), Patent hilt etc., as well as specific details of how the swords are marked, as in which trading name and address, and whether or not they have a number or name, or both stamped on the back edge of the blade.

Thanks,

Gordon

[fernando]

Well Gordon, why don't you start by using the "Search" button and browse for "GARDEN"; you will find some interesting material .

[scinde]

Originally Posted by fernando

Well Gordon, why don't you start by using the "Search" button and browse for "GARDEN"; you will find some interesting material .

Thanks Fernando,

I seem to be missing something, or not using the search button correctly.

[fernando]

You may start HERE

and HERE ... post #267


.

[scinde]

Originally Posted by fernando

You may start HERE

and HERE ... post #267


.

Thanks for the link Fernando however, I know the owners of that sword, and already recorded the information last year, at the time the sword was acquired..

I'm constantly looking for new information, and although the previous was my first request for info on this forum, in general it's not the first time I've endeavoured to source new information.

Past experience is that I get no response, which would seem to indicate that there's nobody out there who owns a sword sold by Garden; alternately my requests are not reaching them, or they wish to remain private.

[scinde]

As previous requests for information of swords sold by Garden have not produced one single piece of information, I'm now extending my request for information to include firearms that may have been sold by Robert S. Garden.

Should anyone be able to provide any information, I'm particularly interested to know specifically how the item is marked, and whether or not the markings include numbers.

Thanks in advance.

[corrado26]

In the wonderful book of my old friend Bob Brooker, "British Military Pistols an Associated Edged Weapons" you can find on pages 360-368 some pistols made by GARDEN 200 Piccadilly London.
corrado26

[fernando]

You can find Robert Sopring Garden listed in Boothroyds BRITISH GUNMAKERS directory as sword cuttler & gunmaker in at 200 Picadilly, in 1861, the at 29 Picadilly, 1862-77. He also appears in THE LONDON GUN TRADE bu E.Gooding & Peter A. Scott- Edeson


Here is a description of how Robert S. Garden, as a retailer, signed his mark in a cased percussion Tranter revolver, circa 1855:

" ... on the right of the barrel, finely engraved frame and top-strap decorated with scrollwork and shell ornament, the former signed by the retailer 'Robert Garden & Son 200 Piccadilly, London', border and scroll-engraved cylinder with roped forward edge, safety-stop, border and scroll- engraved rammer, trigger-guard and butt-cap, chequered walnut butt, and traces of original finish: in original lined and fitted oak case with accessories including James Dixon & Sons powder-flask, brass bullet mould numbered en suite, the interior of the lid with retailer's trade label 'Robert S. Garden, 29 Piccadilly London' ... "

[fernando]

You can find HERE a cased center fire pistol signed by his son in modern times (1925) but no description of how he used the mark.

[corrado26]

............and you can find in the "NEUE STÖCKEL: " GARDEN Robert, London GB, 1860-77, 200 Piccadilly, 1871-77 29 Piccadilly, 1878-85 " Garden & Son, 1885-90 R.S.GARDEN 200 Piccadilly, Specialist for British Indian army weapons
corrado26

[scinde]

Originally Posted by corrado26

In the wonderful book of my old friend Bob Brooker, "British Military Pistols an Associated Edged Weapons" you can find on pages 360-368 some pistols made by GARDEN 200 Piccadilly London.
corrado26

Thank you very much indeed, very encouraging to see these fine pistols have survived, whereas swords from the same period are apparently scarce.

This would seem to back up one of the other comments to the effect that percussion firearms sold by Garden survive in greater number than anything else.

[scinde]

Originally Posted by fernando

You can find HERE a cased center fire pistol signed by his son in modern times (1925) but no description of how he used the mark.

Thanks Fernando, although the date they have placed on it puzzles me somewhat.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by scinde

Thanks Fernando, although the date they have placed on it puzzles me somewhat.

Indeed; in 1925 Robert Garden would not be around and Houdah pistols production would not have reach such date.

[Will M]

A Garden LC sword, 29 Picedilly London.

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Will,
Thank you for bringing back this thread! Fascinating topic, and recalling the years of such great discussions which offered outstanding insights with the collective knowledge shared!

It seems to me that 'Garden' in its varying names as a military outfitter was very much in attendance to the military in the Raj and earlier the East India Company. I recall seeing another book by the author Bob Brooker "British Military Pistols" which had various examples mentioning Garden Co. and it seems in particular some of the 'Poona' units.

I have long had a British M1821 light cavalry troopers sword by Reeves, which has triple digit numbers 111 on the blade spine .
I had always wondered if perhaps this was numbering in accord with the unit number in a contract? specific to the maker.
But later something suggested that supply to EIC had blades numbered?

It seems uncharacteristic for British sword makers to number the regular swords for troopers etc. (though we know that Wilkinson of course began serial numbers on officers swords in 1850s).

Also, interestingly Reeves had begun his new tang patent, and these became the sandwich type grip on the new M1853, so I wondered if this had some oblique association since it was by Reeves (this does not have the new tang so it is not transitional).

Perhaps I'm 'chasing zebras' here, but very curious.
What would these numbers mean?

Beautiful example sword you posted, especially to this supplier BTW!

All the best
Jim

[Will M]

Hi Jim, my "guess" that the numbers are just a control number for Garden.
I have a infantry sword with brass scabbard marked Garden with number 405 on the blade spine. Blade is etched with the officers initials RH but I've not found the name. It is a patent hilt and has Garden name etch with 29 Picedilly and Garden stamped on the blade spine.
The VR in the guard appears to be shot out. Possibly an interesting story behind it?

[Magey_McMage]

Hello, I have information on a couple other Garden & Son swords. The first is one I won at auction but have yet to receive. Unusual in that it is a Pillin proof disc with a rarely seen etching around it, also that it is a folding guard (now broken) patent solid hilt. A bit like having a court sword hilt with a broadsword blade. Link here to the auction as I am on my phone and do not want to reformat the webp as jpgs:

https://www.the-saleroom.com/en-gb/a...8-b38b00dfbe8f

The latter with attached images is one I know the current owners of, these are the auction photos. (It was listed on their store site before deciding to keep it) It is a lozenge/lenticular sabre blade, so no fullers, almost a flat solid but think more of a boat tailed spitzer bullet. It is also a patent solid hilt.

From what I can informally tell, Garden seemed to have a niche carved out not for the well heeled fanciest officers but more along the lines of the explorers and adventurers (or at least those who styled themselves as such). With the large howdah pistols and high end but generally more serious swords, it is no Hamburger Rogers & Co or Hawkes but for those expecting violence and adventure on the frontier. Reminds me of the old Abercrombie & Fitch around the turn of the 20th century which was a much different time.

I am not on below forum and please let me know if I need to remove this but there is also a small discussion as seen here: https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/brit...rd-t29109.html

And below are links to various other things that have their retailer name attached to them:
-https://bid.candtauctions.co.uk/lot-details/index/catalog/208/lot/67211/Victorian-officer-s-mameluke-sword-by-GARDEN-SON-200-PICCADILLY-LONDON

-https://royalarmouries.org/collection/object/object-7842

-https://www.michaeldlong.com/product/british-percussion-pistol-c-1864-by-r-garden-scinde-horse/

Please let me know if any of this is improper, I just figured I could add some further links of officers weapons and firearms. I agree with Jim McDougall here, they carried a very specific store style and appears to be popular for people in the know to seek them out specifically because of that reputation. The last link there is a .65 caliber or about 16.5mm. Needless to say they weren't in the business of making or selling weapons that would only graze the enemy!

[Will M]

Magey thanks for the links. The sword illustrated is very nice and has provenance which I believe most important!

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Will M

Hi Jim, my "guess" that the numbers are just a control number for Garden.
I have a infantry sword with brass scabbard marked Garden with number 405 on the blade spine. Blade is etched with the officers initials RH but I've not found the name. It is a patent hilt and has Garden name etch with 29 Picedilly and Garden stamped on the blade spine.
The VR in the guard appears to be shot out. Possibly an interesting story behind it?

Thanks Will! This is great and I think your idea of it being some sort of control number makes sense.
It seems odd that they would go to the trouble of stamping these numbers into the blade spine. Was it record keeping? and they kept records of swords sold to officers and clients?
While my example seems to be a troopers, rather than officers sword, as it is completely austere, no decoration or proof plug etc. perhaps it was that officers bought regular troopers swords as 'fighting' swords. It would seem they might defer taking their expensive and fancier dress and other swords on campaign .........though I think obviously there were exceptions.
Officers had carte blanch on most things, so it would seem possible.

Right you are on the shot out VR in the hilt! Definitely a story there!

[Jim McDougall]

Magey, thank you for the interesting links and info.
It is most interesting to think of this firm tailored to the adventurers, explorers and dynamic characters of the times in 19th century Great Britain, and makes sense. While obviously they did supply swords and guns to officers, it seems the primary clientele were aligned with many of the irregular units in the Raj.
As these were basically private units aligned with the East India Company in the years prior to the Mutiny, the demographic of the men would seem to correspond to 'adventurers', who were not military but functioned well in para-military contexts.

It seems most of the guns, swords associated with units of the Scinde Irregular Cavalry, and Poonah Horse, are most regularly seen. I have always thought the Howdah pistols were pretty fascinating, as well as the Jacob's rifle, which was invented by Brig.Gen. John Jacob EIC. He was with the Scinde Horse, and created this powerful rifle which was accurate for miles and with exploding rounds in one barrel. These were often termed 'elephant rifles'.
They were made by Swinburne and several others, not sure if Garden ever handled them.