Kris Handle and Lion Scabbard

templarnight · 14th November 2011, 12:17 PM

Hello.
I have these two Mounts from a Kris. They are beautifully carved.
Were they from the same weapon?
Can anyone tell me more about where these cae from, their age?
I have never seen the Lion before so would love to know more.
Many thanks

Rick · 14th November 2011, 04:13 PM

These are both Madura work .
The handle is in a helmetform style .
The wrongko is a popular form; both, IMO show Dutch influence .

templarnight · 14th November 2011, 04:16 PM

Do you think they come from the same Kris?

Rick · 14th November 2011, 04:28 PM

If they were purchased together then there is a good chance they are .

Both forms are fairly common .

A. G. Maisey · 14th November 2011, 06:52 PM

Rick, I don't consider the lion wrongko form to be all that common. Yes, we've seen a few put up here over time, but prior to the internet revolution, the average western collector would have killed to get his hands on a lion wrongko. In my entire collecting life I've seen no more than half a dozen or so old lion form wrongkos. Bearing in mind the number of keris I routinely handle, half a dozen of anything is a very small number of examples.

Marcokeris · 14th November 2011, 06:56 PM

They seem old with nice patina

Sajen · 14th November 2011, 08:34 PM

Hello,

since I think that is your first post here: Welcome!

I think that your handle and wrongko are old and belong most proable together, it seems that both carved from the same wood. Also when it is not the finest carving I have seen is it a good acquisition. I am with Alan; I as well have only seen a few lion wrongkos which have been old and even if I don't would have killed to get one I would be glad to get an old one.

Regards,

Detlef

asomotif · 14th November 2011, 08:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

In my entire collecting life I've seen no more than half a dozen or so old lion form wrongkos.

Dear Alan,
How old do you estimate this wrongko to be ?

In the Netherlands we see this shape quite often.
But often they are of lesser quality and most of them appear to be vet.bring back keris post WW 2

Best regards,
Willem

Ps. nice ukiran and wrongko. I would guess them to be a set as they have similar patina.

Rick · 14th November 2011, 11:22 PM

Alan, the carving of the lion is quite good; if this is old work then I agree with you; hard to find .
My own example I consider new; it does not have half the style that this example shows .

[edit]
If these are rare in the local environment and the 'tide of conquest' has taken them West, could they not have been originally intended for Dutch (in particular) taste only ?

A. G. Maisey · 15th November 2011, 07:39 AM

My guess on age is probably around 1890-1930. This is only a guess, it is not based on any special knowledge, only on the apparent age from the photo, and on similar ones I've seen.

Yeah Rick, quality does vary enormously with these, and really nice ones are scarce, but I believe all except the very obviously recent, ie, post 1980, would date from pre-1940.

I've seen people theorise that this style of dress was produced specifically for Dutch souvenir hunters. I've never heard this in Jawa or Madura, but from European and American collectors.

They might be right. I don't know. But I do know this:- in the Sumenep area of Madura there is an immense variation in wrongko styles, things that I would categorise as folk art, and these appear to be legitimate local styles, not something that was done for the souvenir market.

I personally don't back the souvenir for the Dutch theory my feeling is that this style was just another local Madura style that was popular for a while, then dropped from favour.

kai · 15th November 2011, 09:30 AM

Hello Alan,

Quote:

I don't consider the lion wrongko form to be all that common. Yes, we've seen a few put up here over time, but prior to the internet revolution, the average western collector would have killed to get his hands on a lion wrongko. In my entire collecting life I've seen no more than half a dozen or so old lion form wrongkos. Bearing in mind the number of keris I routinely handle, half a dozen of anything is a very small number of examples.

In the Netherlands, this wronko style is certainly not rare - I guess I see a pre-WW2 example every month or two (and that is without being able to visit local flea markets); many are of lesser quality though.

Regards,
Kai

kai · 15th November 2011, 09:47 AM

Hello Alan,

Quote:

I personally don't back the souvenir for the Dutch theory my feeling is that this style was just another local Madura style that was popular for a while, then dropped from favour.

Given the wide variety of more-or-less Dutch-influenced styles in keris Madura, I believe this is very likely a genuine Maduran style. However, it obviously struck a chord with Dutch soldiers/paper-shufflers/expats given that a large majority of the surviving examples are now found in the Netherlands.

Regards,
Kai

Gustav · 15th November 2011, 12:44 PM

The lion wrongko normally comes with another kind of hilt. Also is workmanship on wrongko and hilt different, wrongko is better, more carefully carved and finished.

David · 15th November 2011, 03:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gustav

The lion wrongko normally comes with another kind of hilt. Also is workmanship on wrongko and hilt different, wrongko is better, more carefully carved and finished.

I agree that there does seem to be some difference in the carving style. The hilt is done well, but not quite as well as the wrongko. I don'tthink this means that they were not originally matched though. They seem to be similar wood with similar patina. I have seen this type of hilt matched with the lion before as well.
As for rarity, we do see this dress form somewhat often, but they are much more rare with this level of carving. I have seen maybe a half dozen or more that have this level of carving. Many more that are much more roughly hewn. Of course i don't get out to Dutch flea markets very much.

sjors · 15th November 2011, 03:25 PM

Quote:

In the Netherlands, this wronko style is certainly not rare - I guess I see a pre-WW2 example every month or two (and that is without being able to visit local flea markets); many are of lesser quality though.

Realising we are a little bit spoiled with kerisses in the Netherlands I'am sorry to say but I couldn't agree more: this type of wrongko is very common and very easily found in the Netherlands.
Still today on almost every fleamarket you will find one or more of those "lionkerisses", most of the times "poorly" executeded souvenirs from Dutch soldiers who spend some time in "the Far East"...

(and to be honest or even blunt, in spite of their colleagues abroad, most Dutch collectors are not interested a bit in those lionkerisses because of their low quality and low value; most of the times they are sold for the amount of 40 or 50 American dollars or 30, 40 Euro's at the most...)

Sajen · 15th November 2011, 06:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sjors

Realising we are a little bit spoiled with kerisses in the Netherlands I'am sorry to say but I couldn't agree more: this type of wrongko is very common and very easily found in the Netherlands.
Still today on almost every fleamarket you will find one or more of those "lionkerisses", most of the times "poorly" executeded souvenirs from Dutch soldiers who spend some time in "the Far East"...

(and to be honest or even blunt, in spite of their colleagues abroad, most Dutch collectors are not interested a bit in those lionkerisses because of their low quality and low value; most of the times they are sold for the amount of 40 or 50 American dollars or 30, 40 Euro's at the most...)

I only can speak for myself but think that Alan as well have meant old good carved lion wrongkos like the one here shown and not the hastily poor carved ones.
But maybe I should visit some fleemarkets in the Netherlands and I have good luck to find a good one!

Regards,

Detlef

sirek · 15th November 2011, 07:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

I only can speak for myself but think that Alan as well have meant old good carved lion wrongkos like the one here shown and not the hastily poor carved ones.
But maybe I should visit some fleemarkets in the Netherlands and I have good luck to find a good one!

Regards,

Detlef

This is an example of what you will find

simatua · 16th November 2011, 08:04 PM

Most of the time the blades are poor quality,
sometimes you get lucky.

Here's mine which i aquired lately. It had a very rusty blade. after cleaning the pamor did come out nicely.

It had been hanging many years on a wall of an Old KNIL soldier, who brought it in the fifties to the Netherlands.

compared to many others , this is a big one 43 cm blade, total 60 cm.

A. G. Maisey · 16th November 2011, 09:46 PM

Yes Detlef, you're right, I was talking about well carved older examples. Something like these two:-

14th November 2011, 12:17 PM	#1
templarnight Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Posts: 87	Kris Handle and Lion Scabbard Hello. I have these two Mounts from a Kris. They are beautifully carved. Were they from the same weapon? Can anyone tell me more about where these cae from, their age? I have never seen the Lion before so would love to know more. Many thanks Attached Images

14th November 2011, 11:22 PM	#9
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,376	Alan, the carving of the lion is quite good; if this is old work then I agree with you; hard to find . My own example I consider new; it does not have half the style that this example shows . [edit] If these are rare in the local environment and the 'tide of conquest' has taken them West, could they not have been originally intended for Dutch (in particular) taste only ? Last edited by Rick; 14th November 2011 at 11:50 PM.

16th November 2011, 08:04 PM	#18
simatua Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 69	Most of the time the blades are poor quality, sometimes you get lucky. Here's mine which i aquired lately. It had a very rusty blade. after cleaning the pamor did come out nicely. It had been hanging many years on a wall of an Old KNIL soldier, who brought it in the fifties to the Netherlands. compared to many others , this is a big one 43 cm blade, total 60 cm. Attached Images

16th November 2011, 09:46 PM	#19
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,085	Yes Detlef, you're right, I was talking about well carved older examples. Something like these two:- Attached Images

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14th November 2011, 04:13 PM	#2
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,376	These are both Madura work . The handle is in a helmetform style . The wrongko is a popular form; both, IMO show Dutch influence .

14th November 2011, 04:16 PM	#3
templarnight Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Posts: 87	Do you think they come from the same Kris?

14th November 2011, 04:28 PM	#4
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,376	If they were purchased together then there is a good chance they are . Both forms are fairly common .

14th November 2011, 06:52 PM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,085	Rick, I don't consider the lion wrongko form to be all that common. Yes, we've seen a few put up here over time, but prior to the internet revolution, the average western collector would have killed to get his hands on a lion wrongko. In my entire collecting life I've seen no more than half a dozen or so old lion form wrongkos. Bearing in mind the number of keris I routinely handle, half a dozen of anything is a very small number of examples.

14th November 2011, 06:56 PM	#6
Marcokeris Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Italy Posts: 928	They seem old with nice patina

14th November 2011, 08:34 PM	#7
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 9,415	Hello, since I think that is your first post here: Welcome! I think that your handle and wrongko are old and belong most proable together, it seems that both carved from the same wood. Also when it is not the finest carving I have seen is it a good acquisition. I am with Alan; I as well have only seen a few lion wrongkos which have been old and even if I don't would have killed to get one I would be glad to get an old one. Regards, Detlef

15th November 2011, 07:39 AM	#10
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,085	My guess on age is probably around 1890-1930. This is only a guess, it is not based on any special knowledge, only on the apparent age from the photo, and on similar ones I've seen. Yeah Rick, quality does vary enormously with these, and really nice ones are scarce, but I believe all except the very obviously recent, ie, post 1980, would date from pre-1940. I've seen people theorise that this style of dress was produced specifically for Dutch souvenir hunters. I've never heard this in Jawa or Madura, but from European and American collectors. They might be right. I don't know. But I do know this:- in the Sumenep area of Madura there is an immense variation in wrongko styles, things that I would categorise as folk art, and these appear to be legitimate local styles, not something that was done for the souvenir market. I personally don't back the souvenir for the Dutch theory my feeling is that this style was just another local Madura style that was popular for a while, then dropped from favour.

15th November 2011, 12:44 PM	#13
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,295	The lion wrongko normally comes with another kind of hilt. Also is workmanship on wrongko and hilt different, wrongko is better, more carefully carved and finished.