Old Indian swords: opinions?

ariel · 22nd February 2008, 08:47 PM

Believe it or not, but I just slouched into our local flea market, and...
Here they are: Old Indian Hilts (as per Rawson), Lozenge-shaped blades ( thin, but not flat, rather diamond-shaped) with scarring and heavy patination, still sharp and obviously good steel ( bend and return to true).
Handles and langets painted green ( old paint). Top finials are not long , but octagonal. All tight and without rust.
Questions:
-What part of India?
-Proper name ( Patissa????)
-Age
- To clean or not to clean? To de-paint or not?
If anybody wants to hazard a guess about monetary worth, please do not do it here: send me a PM or an E-Mail

VANDOO · 23rd February 2008, 02:19 AM

A VERY NICE AND UNUSUAL FIND, CONGRADULATIONS.

IT IS DIFFICULT TO TELL NOT HAVING THE SWORDS IN HAND TO JUDGE BUT FROM WHAT I CAN SEE I THINK I WOULD LEAVE THE SWORDS AS THEY ARE. I WOULD JUST DUST THEM OFF AND WIPE THEM DOWN WITH SOME WD-40 OR SOME OTHER OIL AND WHEN DRYED OUT AND CLEANED UP YOU COULD PUT SOME OF THE RESANANCE WAX ON IF IF YOU HAVE SOME. THE GREEN STUFF ON THE HANDLE MAY BE CORROSION IF THE GRIP IS COPPER, BRONZE OR BRASS. IF IT IS I WOULD LEAVE IT THERE AS IT SHOWS THE AGE AND PATINA WELL, "BESIDES GREEN IS MY FAVORITE COLOR

) THE RUST ON THE BLADE APPEARS TO BE OLD AND STABLE SO THE OIL OR WAX SHOULD STOP ANY FUTURE RUST.

ariel · 23rd February 2008, 07:08 PM

I made a small window on one of them and quickly etched it.
Mechanical damascus?

Richard Furrer · 23rd February 2008, 08:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

I made a small window on one of them and quickly etched it.
Mechanical damascus?

Yes and no. It is the result of welding, but more to consolidate the bloom than intentional patterning. Prior to large amounts of cast steel being traded and produced ALL steels and irons were the result of various bloomery or "direct reduction" smelts and the resulting iron/steel was forge-welded into a a larger mass simply to get enough solid material from which to forge a sword.

I saw similar things when in India, but I do not know the name. Some had very large blades with that handle style.

Ric

Jim McDougall · 24th February 2008, 11:10 PM

These two are indeed the 'old Indian hilt' often termed khanda in various references and the hilt style the basis for the Hindu basket hilt which evolved after European contact by end of the 16th century. The widened spatulate blade tip corresponds to the slashing sword strokes favored by the Marathas and according to C.Purdon Clarke (1898, 1910 as ref. in Elgood.p.83 "Hindu Arms & Ritual") and Pant (p.66), this would be termed a 'pattisa'.

Clarke also considers this hilt form to be pre 17th century.

These definitely have considerable age, and I wonder if the green paint may have been applied to preserve the deteriorating iron on the hilts. I am not sure why the green color, or if that might have had some significance to whoever applied it. It would be difficult to say without close examination whether the hilts are original to the blades, but they seem to have corroborative age. Whether that would reach early 17th c. is hard to say, but traditional weapons seem to have not only have survived long periods, but in India, atavistic recreations of them seem favored as well. These could well be interpretations of the earlier form that may have been made as late as 18th century for traditional purposes.

22nd February 2008, 08:47 PM	#1
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Old Indian swords: opinions? Believe it or not, but I just slouched into our local flea market, and... Here they are: Old Indian Hilts (as per Rawson), Lozenge-shaped blades ( thin, but not flat, rather diamond-shaped) with scarring and heavy patination, still sharp and obviously good steel ( bend and return to true). Handles and langets painted green ( old paint). Top finials are not long , but octagonal. All tight and without rust. Questions: -What part of India? -Proper name ( Patissa????) -Age - To clean or not to clean? To de-paint or not? If anybody wants to hazard a guess about monetary worth, please do not do it here: send me a PM or an E-Mail Attached Images Last edited by ariel; 22nd February 2008 at 09:47 PM.

23rd February 2008, 07:08 PM	#3
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I made a small window on one of them and quickly etched it. Mechanical damascus? Attached Images

23rd February 2008, 02:19 AM	#2
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	A VERY NICE AND UNUSUAL FIND, CONGRADULATIONS. IT IS DIFFICULT TO TELL NOT HAVING THE SWORDS IN HAND TO JUDGE BUT FROM WHAT I CAN SEE I THINK I WOULD LEAVE THE SWORDS AS THEY ARE. I WOULD JUST DUST THEM OFF AND WIPE THEM DOWN WITH SOME WD-40 OR SOME OTHER OIL AND WHEN DRYED OUT AND CLEANED UP YOU COULD PUT SOME OF THE RESANANCE WAX ON IF IF YOU HAVE SOME. THE GREEN STUFF ON THE HANDLE MAY BE CORROSION IF THE GRIP IS COPPER, BRONZE OR BRASS. IF IT IS I WOULD LEAVE IT THERE AS IT SHOWS THE AGE AND PATINA WELL, "BESIDES GREEN IS MY FAVORITE COLOR ) THE RUST ON THE BLADE APPEARS TO BE OLD AND STABLE SO THE OIL OR WAX SHOULD STOP ANY FUTURE RUST.

24th February 2008, 11:10 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	These two are indeed the 'old Indian hilt' often termed khanda in various references and the hilt style the basis for the Hindu basket hilt which evolved after European contact by end of the 16th century. The widened spatulate blade tip corresponds to the slashing sword strokes favored by the Marathas and according to C.Purdon Clarke (1898, 1910 as ref. in Elgood.p.83 "Hindu Arms & Ritual") and Pant (p.66), this would be termed a 'pattisa'. Clarke also considers this hilt form to be pre 17th century. These definitely have considerable age, and I wonder if the green paint may have been applied to preserve the deteriorating iron on the hilts. I am not sure why the green color, or if that might have had some significance to whoever applied it. It would be difficult to say without close examination whether the hilts are original to the blades, but they seem to have corroborative age. Whether that would reach early 17th c. is hard to say, but traditional weapons seem to have not only have survived long periods, but in India, atavistic recreations of them seem favored as well. These could well be interpretations of the earlier form that may have been made as late as 18th century for traditional purposes.