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Old 7th November 2007, 05:34 AM   #1
drdavid
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Default Greneng

As things have been quiet on the board for a while I thought I would ask a question that has been on my mind for some time. What is the purpose of the greneng? From my reading there seem to be three basic theories, firstly that it cut down on the amount of blood that travelled from blade to handle and thus made the keris easier to hold in combat, secondly that it was designed to catch or deflect an opponents blade, so part guard part disarming strategy and finally that it was an opportunity for the craftsman to exhibit his skills. Does anyone have any evidence that one or more of these are correct? I must say theory one seems a little implausible to me, 2 makes more sense biomechanically and 3 makes marketing sense.
cheers
DrD
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Old 7th November 2007, 07:06 AM   #2
A. G. Maisey
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Just to clarify a point David, you are talking in terms of the original reason for the inclusion of the greneng in keris blade design?
That is, the possible reason it may have originated many hundreds of years ago.

You are not inviting speculation on the later development of the greneng and its esoteric, talismanic, arcane or philosophical interpretations?

Am I correct in this assumption?
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Old 7th November 2007, 08:23 PM   #3
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Alan, you are correct I am talking about the original purpose. If we take the 'form follows function' approach there should be a reason it is like it is. Thanks for clarifying my question
cheers
David
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Old 7th November 2007, 09:58 PM   #4
Gavin Nugent
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Hi, all that I have learnt of the Kris is relatively new to me from study and an elderly friend who spent a very long time in and out of Bali in the 70's and 80's with the people who inhabited a 10th century water temple far removed from the tourist Mecca we all know of today. From all that I have read and learnt first had from those who have travelled there is that it is entirely form before funtion with regards to these knives.
From all that I can gather from my talks with Max, the Kris and every part of it is all a spiritual connotation, much like the importance of the Gajah in their culture which it also found on Kris knives as are other "items" that are held with great importance like the Naga and many others I have seen on old blades.
I have always said to Max how much the Genang side of a Kris reminds me of the Indonesian Archipelago and I am only surmising that Genang being a city in this Island chain is represented on the blade, it may be how it all came about, or this ideal of mine may go back further and hence this is how the city received it's name. If anyone can touch on the origins of the city of Genang, here may be the answers....

Hold your Kris knives up against the map in the link below and tell me what you think? I beleive the line between Ganja and the main blade of the Kris represents the break between the major islands which would put Genang in the correct position on the blade.
http://www.traveljournals.net/explo...451/genang.html

regards

Gavin

Last edited by freebooter : 7th November 2007 at 10:17 PM.
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Old 7th November 2007, 10:07 PM   #5
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Interesting!
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Old 7th November 2007, 10:12 PM   #6
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Yep, I go off on a tangent sometimes and think too much but I think there is a thesis there for either myself or someone who wants to get the jump on me with further research, heck maybe someone wants to help me with it and get an honouree doctorate

Gav

PS I think I had a moment of madness and dropped the "r" from the Grenang to get Genang, though there still maybe be some validity to these mad thoughts

Last edited by freebooter : 8th November 2007 at 04:46 AM.
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Old 13th November 2007, 06:53 AM   #7
Kiai Carita
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Hello,

A very interesting discussion. While thinking about the symbolic meaning and function of the greneng, it might be appropriate to keep in mind that the meaning of greneng is also "to mutter, speak in a low voice to a confidant or to one's self" , and that two dha, or Dhadha, means chest, breast.

Warm regards,
Bram
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Old 13th November 2007, 07:08 AM   #8
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We have had discussions on ron dha, and greneng , at times in the past.

Almost invariably these discussions turn in the direction that this discussion is turning, that is, we begin to look at the ron dha and the greneng in terms of twentieth century understanding. There is nothing wrong with this, and I'm sure that it is interesting for some people, however, the question that was asked by Dr. David very specifically addressed the origin of the greneng.

That means we need to place our considerations of this matter into early Jawa. We need to try to hypothesize using the fabric of early Javanese society as our foundation, rather than a 19th-20th century Javanese philosophical belief system as our base.

Does anybody have any thoughts on this matter that may come close to the spirit of the original question?
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Old 13th November 2007, 09:25 AM   #9
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Yes,

If "greneng" form does follow function, then how about "sekar kacang"? Does "sekar kacang" form, follow function too?

Ganjawulung
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Old 13th November 2007, 02:32 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ganjawulung
Yes,

If "greneng" form does follow function, then how about "sekar kacang"? Does "sekar kacang" form, follow function too?

Ganjawulung


I don't think it is a question of whether or not form follows function. In almost all cases it does. The question is what exactly is that function. Please keep in mind that function need not be a physically one. It could be a spiritual or esorteric function as well. It could be the function of the empu "signing" his work as well, though i do tend to see this as more of a recent concept (19 & 20C) as Alan remarked. And even then it is not the form of the greneng itself that is unique to various empus, but the style in which it is rendered that becomes the "signature". The form it takes (DhaDha) is fairly cosistent and is still not explained. So the question remains, why this form? Why the letter Dha, if that is what it represents? Does this letter, have a specific meaning in the culture, spiritual or otherwise. In the Hebrew alphabet, for instance, each letter translates as a particular word which in turn has even deeper spiritual meaning. Could such a system be in play here?
I think we should leave discussion of the sekar kacang to another thread.
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Old 13th November 2007, 03:07 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David
...Please keep in mind that function need not be a physically one. It could be a spiritual or esorteric function as well. It could be the function of the empu "signing" his work as well, though i do tend to see this as more of a recent concept (19 & 20C) as Alan remarked. And even then it is not the form of the greneng itself that is unique to various empus, but the style in which it is rendered that becomes the "signature". The form it takes (DhaDha) is fairly cosistent and is still not explained. So the question remains, why this form? Why the letter Dha, if that is what it represents? Does this letter, have a specific meaning in the culture, spiritual or otherwise. In the Hebrew alphabet, for instance, each letter translates as a particular word which in turn has even deeper spiritual meaning. Could such a system be in play here?

Thanks, David. I think your explanation is indeed very useful to us to continue the discussion in a positive way. Of course I must agree with your opinion on this...
Quote:
Originally Posted by David
I think we should leave discussion of the sekar kacang to another thread.

Yes, I think we must continue the discussion on greneng in this thread...

Ganjawulung
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Old 13th November 2007, 09:39 AM   #12
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Yes Mas Bram,

"Greneng" means also "grundel" (speaking in a low voice, but with intonation of discontent). Two "dha", or "rong dha" could means "dhadha" or chest. But if "greneng robyong" or "greneng susun" with four dha, then it could be "dhadha dhadha" or waving your palm-hand to say good bye to someone...

Nice to see your comment again, Mas...


Ganjawulung

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiai Carita
Hello,

A very interesting discussion. While thinking about the symbolic meaning and function of the greneng, it might be appropriate to keep in mind that the meaning of greneng is also "to mutter, speak in a low voice to a confidant or to one's self" , and that two dha, or Dhadha, means chest, breast.

Warm regards,
Bram
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Old 14th November 2007, 05:11 AM   #13
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As the first found inscriptions that mention keris call it kres, it might be safe to assume that from the beginning the greneng was called a greneng. The Balinese alphabet does have a dha, by the way.

When did the keris begin to have non-weapon function features? I would say from the beginning, as soo as the ganja was attached there you have a non weapon form to follow a symbolic function.

Salam hangat,
Bram
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Old 14th November 2007, 09:17 AM   #14
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Kiai Carita, I admire your absolute certainty.

Most especially do I admire it in the absence of any certainty that the object to which the word that has been romanised as "kres" was in fact an object that we would recognise as a keris. It may have been, then again it may not have been. Interestingly, the word "kres" is not to be found in Zoetmulder.

If we can assume that the greneng has been a part of keris design since some time during the Majapahit era, then it seems reasonable to assume that we should be able to find the word "greneng", or a word which could have become "greneng", within the Old Javanese lexicon. I cannot find either in Zoetmulder. This is, of course, not proof that the word, or words did not exist, but before we can defend the assumption that the greneng has always been known as the greneng, we do need a somewhat more positive argument.

In any case, this debate over words is once again straying from the core issue. It really doesn't matter whether the early keris was known as keris, kris, kres, or puklak.Nor does it matter by what name the greneng was known. What we are considering here is the reason for the greneng, not its given name.That is immaterial to this discussion.

I disagree totally with your opinion that the presence of the ganja on a blade made of it a non-weapon.

The early monumental representations of the keris quite clearly show these weapons with ganjas, and used in the way they were, that ganja had a definite function in the use of the early keris as a weapon. For that matter, the ganja has a weapon related function in modern keris design too.

Later philosophical interpretations have attached a symbolism to the ganja that cannot be assumed to have applied in a society and culture which could no more have understood this philosophy than it could have understood the Space Shuttle.

Kiai Carita, I acknowledge your right to hold the opinions you have put forward, however, if you would like these opinions to be accepted by others, may I suggest that you offer some logical argument, or substantial evidence to support them?

Regarding your assertion that the Balinese alphabet does in fact contain the consonant "dha".

I know almost nothing about the Balinese language, but I do seem to recall that in the Balinese alphabet there is no "dha", but there is "da". However, Kawi was used in Bali, just as it was used in Jawa, and in Kawi we can find "dha", which would be used in Bali for the writing of script in Kawi.I will stand correction on this Balinese language question, as I really am very ignorant of this language. Perhaps somebody with intimate knowledge of the language may be able guide us?
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Old 14th November 2007, 10:21 AM   #15
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Might I ask those with more experience if examples of keris from the older collections all exhibit the same form of greneng. It seems that modern keris often carry the dha character shape (or multiples of it) in the greneng but was that always the case? If early keris with greneng have very similar shapes in the greneng as currently that may lead us in one direction, if they varied significantly that would possibly have different implications.
DrD

Last edited by drdavid : 14th November 2007 at 10:35 AM.
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Old 14th November 2007, 11:51 AM   #16
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i am of course, less experienced in this area than most of y'all, but maybe from the outside can offer another view. i can also easily make a fool of myself, but what the heck, nothing ventured, nothing gained.

while not very informed on the subtle definitions of the greneng, which needs to be defined for us new members, and assuming the original poster was basically talking about the ORIGINAL FUNCTION of the notched area at the top of the blade near the ganjah, i note that the rencong also has similar notches cut into the similar area, and in fact on the rear side of the area where your fingers can come in contact on mine (they're sharp little devils too).

the kudi/kujang also has decorative notches on the top of the blade, on my pre-islamic one, they are well forward, over the 3 holes.


10.5 in. blade kujang - 9in. blade rencong

zoomed



european blades frequently have decorative filework notches cut into the blade spine, scots blades are also frequently notched


4 in. weidmannsheil hunter

could it just be that they are decorative items that have evolved into fancy forms & have become 'traditional' in some areas, adding more esoteric interpretations in later ages.

as not all kris blades have them, and some non-kris blades have them, i'd think that if they had a definite non-decorative kris specific function then all kris would have them to some extent, however they are apparently optional.

occam's razor (razors generally come without greneng )?
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Old 14th November 2007, 01:38 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kronckew
the kudi/kujang also has decorative notches on the top of the blade, on my pre-islamic one, they are well forward, over the 3 holes.

european blades frequently have decorative filework notches cut into the blade spine, scots blades are also frequently notched

could it just be that they are decorative items that have evolved into fancy forms & have become 'traditional' in some areas, adding more esoteric interpretations in later ages.

as not all kris blades have them, and some non-kris blades have them, i'd think that if they had a definite non-decorative kris specific function then all kris would have them to some extent, however they are apparently optional.

occam's razor (razors generally come without greneng )?

Your kudi looks like a fairly modern piece to me, not pre-Islamic.
Greneng is certainly much more developed than the notches found on European blades and the form does look very much like the Dha letter it is reputed to represent. It seems to me that they are much more than just decoration.
Keris were/are made on many different levels for many different classes of people and for various purposes. I don't find it surprising therefore that some keris have greneng while others do not.
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Old 17th November 2007, 11:35 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey
Kiai Carita, I admire your absolute certainty.

Most especially do I admire it in the absence of any certainty that the object to which the word that has been romanised as "kres" was in fact an object that we would recognise as a keris. It may have been, then again it may not have been. Interestingly, the word "kres" is not to be found in Zoetmulder.


Pak Alan,

I am certain that I have read somewhere, that the first inscriptions of keris mention it as KRES, and experts who analysed the prasasti were convinced that kres means keris. I notice your certainty in judging the knowledge of the experts who examined the paticular prasasti that I think was mentioned in Harsrinuksma's ensiklopedi. I can't say that they were not certain that the word kres in the prasasti was refering to an object we would now recognize as a keris. In fact, I believe their opinion, that kres is refering to keris.

The words kres and keris contain the sound RIS, which is also related to IRIS, which is an important function of keris as a physical weapon besides stabbing, but that is not important in this discussion.

My opinion that a leter like the caraka DHA exists in the Bali alphabet comes from this site: http://www.babadbali.com/aksarabali/books/tobacaan.htm

Salam hangat,

Bram
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Old 18th November 2007, 01:28 AM   #19
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Dear all, thank you for some wonderful contributions. If you would allow me a flight of intellectual fancy I will float the following ideas.

The concept that the greneng has a function which determined its form seems to have reasonable support.

It seems unlikely that the function was related to its use as a weapon.

It appears likely that the greneng appeared somewhere in the 1100-1300 year range CE (current era= same as AD).

It seems probably that the greneng 'arrived' in that relatively short period of history in what is very similar to its current form and most importantly in a relatively constant form ie it is not the evolution of a decorative tradition.

This form was important to the culture which conceived it and hence was repeated consistently. It is possible/probable that the current cultural interpretation of the form is not the same as its original one.

It has been suggested that all the ups and downs of the greneng represents the northern coastline of the island of Java, (certainly if you look at maps of some stretches of this coastline there are areas that have the 'dha' shape recurrently).

Perhaps given all this the greneng was originally a physical representation (a map) of the area of overlordship/influence of one of the dynasties of central and/or eastern Java (the Singosari or the Majapahit seem most likely given the dates but if evidence of the greneng is found earlier then other regimes would fit). The dynasty wished to assert its authority over a given area (perhaps after a rebellion, perhaps after consolidating power) and chose to do it by carving it into one of their most powerful representational tools, their keris.

please feel free to shred this idea, it is as I said just a flight of fancy
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Old 18th November 2007, 06:52 AM   #20
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Pak Ganja, I really do have a great deal of difficulty in understanding why you would attempt to discourage anybody from reading your interesting and valuable contribution to discussion.I am certain that there are many people who will read this who do not know this part of the Aji Saka legend, and your contribution will add to their knowledge.

However, let us be fair:- the translation and interpretation you have given is not the only one possible from the hanacaraka.Moreover, even when we look at the these translations and interpretations, the true meanings are not simple and obvious. In fact we are considering a moral teaching that has strong links with 19th-20th century Kejawen. Even this moral teaching can be interpreted in varying ways, to carry varying lessons.

I'm not going to diverge into talking about this here, but for those of you who do have an interest, a few thoughtful minutes with Mr. Google will prove very instructive. You might like to start with the Joglosemar site:-

http://www.joglosemar.co.id/kejawen/perfectlife.html

There is much to be discovered about this if you are prepared to put in the time.

But the crux of the matter is this:- Aji Saka is a legendary figure, as is Medang Kamulan. I do not know the origins of this legend, nor when it first began to appear, but if we look at the variations, it does seem obvious that as with all legends it has developed through the telling and retelling, and the current version seems to owe much to the clash between local Javanese Islam and mainstream Islam which occurred at the end of the 19th century. This was probably due to the actions of people returning from The Haj, and resulted in a distinction being made for the first time between the abangan and the santri.

When we begin to consider legend as a source for historic possibility, we need to consider not just the source of the legend, but the way in which it has developed over time.

Then of course we need to consider the philosophy of the hanacaraka, coming to us from PB IX and Yasadipura.But the question must arise:- what has this got to do with the origin of the greneng? I submit:- nothing.

But still, its interesting---just doesn't have anything at all to do with what we are talking about.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

G'day Bram. Can I call you Bram, or Pak Bram, or Pak Kiai? Which would you prefer?

Howabout if I just call you Bram, and you can call me Alan? Lets drop the formalities.

About the "kres" thing, I've also read what you are telling us many times, but I have not yet seen a complete translation done by a qualified scholar and subjected to peer review. All I have seen is the romanisation of the original script and interpretations placed upon it by people who may, or may not be qualified to give that interpretation.
In fact, I'm not even certain as to what inscription this is. I think I've read the source somewhere, but off the top of my head, I don't know it, I don't know who has done the translations, who has checked them---I know nothing except that there is an old inscription that contains the word "kres".

Yes, "kres" resembles "kris", and it might in fact be the same word and mean the same, but even if it does, at the time of the inscription, this word could have referred to an object other than that which we today would recognise as a keris. Then there is the fact that the most authoritative work to date on the Old Javanese lexicon---Zoetmulder--- does not list the word "kres".

Interestingly, the word "kres" is a Modern Javanese word having the sense of cutting or slashing.

I think you may have been reading something into my writing that was not there Bram. I have no certainty at all that the experts who examined the inscription that you mention were either correct or incorrect. How could I have?
I have not seen the complete inscription.
I do not know the process that was applied to romanise it.
I do not who worked on it and who checked it.
I know nothing at all about it, except a vague reference in a book prepared for the popular market.

I do thank you most sincerely for pointing out that this inscription was mentioned in Ensiklopedi. I know I've seen reference to it in other places as well, but Ensiklopedi was a good start. Here we are told that it is an inscription dating from 500AD, it is written in Pallava script, and the language used is Sanscrit. That's a lot of info.

Yes, it would have been written in Pallava script if it was written in 500AD. Last known Pallava script use in an inscription was in March 804.

But was it written in Sanscrit?
I'm not so sure that it was written in Sanscrit. It may have been. The Tarumanegara inscription was written in Sanscrit, and that was about the same time as the "kres" inscription.We don't see Old Kawi until the 8th century, so, yeah, OK, lets agree this "kres" inscription was written in Sanscrit.
But once we do that we have a problem, because Macdonell does not list the word "kres" as a part of the Sanscrit lexicon. In fact, I don't think that the syllabel "kre" occurs at the beginning of a word in Sanscrit; "kri" does occur fairly frequently. Interestingly the word and syllabel "kris" has the sense of thinness in Sanscrit.

So---where does this leave us in respect of our respected archaic inscription that contains (supposedly) the word "kres"?

Personally, I think we need to know a wee bit more about the inscription, its translators, and its checkers, before we draw any conclusions at all.

In any case, this inscription was from about 500AD.

It would be a magical feat of language development if the word "kres" really and truly referred to an object that we would recognise as a kris.
Language is living beast. Constantly moving, jumping and changing direction. Once it ceases to behave thus it dies.

Yes, I think many of us may have heard the "iris" relationship brought up in the past. In fact, I wrote a paper about this maybe 25-30 years ago---before I learnt that I knew nothing.But still, even though I knew nothing---and in truth, still do not--- it wasn't a bad guess, because "iris" does occur in Old Javanese, and might logically be considered as a root word for "kris", which also appears in Old Javanese. Maybe it might not be a direct root, but the idea is there, and the feeling of "slicing", "making thinner", the Sanscrit "kris", and the Old Javanese "kris", together with Old Javanese "iris".

Yeah---why not? Looks like a good basis for a thesis to me.

The mistake I made in my old paper was to link "iris" to Old Malay, rather than Old Javanese.

But anyway, all this interesting stuff has wandered away from our core question:- origin of the greneng.

I've already remarked upon the way I feel this question should be considered, so I won't repeat myself.

I love this divergent crap. It means we can talk all day if we feel so inclined. Good stuff, and interesting. Lets you play with ideas.

Keep this stuff coming Bram. Love it!!


Thanks for the alphabet link.
As I said previously, I was running on memory. What I had was a mental picture of the Balinese alphabet with the same order as the Javanese alphabet, but with different romanisations, which obviously can be put down to differing speech inflections. After looking at your link I threw "balinese alphabet" into google. Here's what I got:-

http://www.omniglot.com/writing/balinese.htm

Actually, the romanisation ain't worth a cupfull of cold water; what we need to look at are the original script representations.In my link you'll see these are a modern version. If you go to Raffles you'll find that he presents maybe as many as a dozen different script forms that have been used in the past for writing Javanese---and by extension, Kawi and Balinese.Yes, of course there's a DA, or a DHA in the Balinese alphabet, but most importantly, there is a script character that echoes the Javanese DHA.---whether the person who romanises it aspirates it or not.


As for your beliefs, Bram.
These are your own personal property, and it is not my intention to try to divest you of your own personal property.
Hold fast to your beliefs. Ignore those who would try to make you change them.
However, please do make room for a little logic.
We all have room for both.In one situation we can be creatures of belief, in a different situation, creatures of logic.
Retain the beliefs, but don't let them interfere with the logic.

Please note:-

I have made an error in the above post.

Pak Ganja was kind enough to indirectly point out to me that the word "kres" is mentioned in an inscription dating from 842AD, not 500AD.

This means that it was written in Old Javanese, not Sanscrit.

Which in turn means that what I have written above about "kres" is irrelevant to the discussion.

This "kres" word matter has been more fully addressed in the "Inscriptions" thread.

I apologise for any inconvenience I may have caused.

Last edited by A. G. Maisey : 19th November 2007 at 01:51 AM.
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Old 21st March 2011, 12:08 AM   #21
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Old 22nd March 2011, 07:32 PM   #22
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