Indian? sword for ID

ariel · 15th December 2006, 12:46 PM

Just ended.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...0714&rd=1&rd=1
The handle looks like a Phurba, but the blade seems to be of high fighting quality: doubt if it is "ceremonial"
What is it?

katana · 15th December 2006, 01:18 PM

Hi Ariel.
the hilt ..to me.....looks to be more Oriental. So I think Tibet is a possibillity.
I am also wondering about the balance of this sword. The blade looks to be 'heavy' , and I would expect the pommel to be more substantial to aid balance. As a one handed sword...which this is....it looks to be a little unwieldy and cumbersome. Is it possible that the blade was rehilted?

Bill M · 15th December 2006, 01:54 PM

Could well be Indian, though the handle is less of a phurba and more of a single end Dorje like you find on Nepalese / Tibetan bells and ritual instruments. Never seen a Dorje on a sword, but it looks real enough and would make sense.

The first picture is of a wonderful old shaman bell from Nepal. I asked my freind in Kathmandu why the shaman wanted to part with such a beauitiful vintage bell with such wear useage and patina? He said that the shaman wanted a NEW shiny bell! He considered this one "worn out." I guess we buy a lot of their "worn out" stuff.

I have heard that "vintage" in Japanese translates as "worn out."

The second picture is an iron "Flame Dagger" ritual piece. Tibetan. Just noticed some rust. My lights show detail that is hard to see with regular illumination. Glad that I noticed it. Will do somthiing about it.

Battara · 15th December 2006, 05:23 PM

Ariel this is another type of ceremonial Tibetan sword.

Jim McDougall · 16th December 2006, 02:44 AM

It is great to see interest in Indian weapons developing further here on the forum!

In looking at this very interesting piece, the observations on the dorje form pommel are well placed and do of course recall that decorative element on Tibetan ritual items such as the phurba as well as seen on 'parasu' (ritual axe) and 'kartttrika' (ritual chopper). I do believe however that this is an Indian sword and by the hilt, probably either Deccani or Mysori. The blade seems to be of the early khanda type, and the assessment on the date seems reasonably placed c.1800, the blade quite possibly earlier.

The hilt of the sword seems characteristically 'atavistic' in line with many Indian weapons, especially those intended for ceremonial or court purposes, recalling decorative dynamics including 'Tantric' elements (as seen on the Tibetan items) as well as the typical architecturally influenced structure.
The botanical theme of the lower part of the hilt recalls similar hilt guard form as seen on early Pala swords c.10th-13th century (Rawson pp.2 and 9), and the hilt overall carries subtle similarities to Indian dagger forms such as the chilanum.

The hilt on this sword seems to be somewhat associated in style with a number of the forms seen in Robert Elgoods "Hindu Arms and Ritual" though certainly not necessarily by typology as much as by the symbolically structured and brass characteristic.

Looks like a great acquisition!!

Best regards,
Jim

Bill M · 16th December 2006, 12:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

It is great to see interest in Indian weapons developing further here on the forum!

In looking at this very interesting piece, the observations on the dorje form pommel are well placed and do of course recall that decorative element on Tibetan ritual items such as the phurba as well as seen on 'parasu' (ritual axe) and 'kartttrika' (ritual chopper). I do believe however that this is an Indian sword and by the hilt, probably either Deccani or Mysori. The blade seems to be of the early khanda type, and the assessment on the date seems reasonably placed c.1800, the blade quite possibly earlier.

The hilt of the sword seems characteristically 'atavistic' in line with many Indian weapons, especially those intended for ceremonial or court purposes, recalling decorative dynamics including 'Tantric' elements (as seen on the Tibetan items) as well as the typical architecturally influenced structure.
The botanical theme of the lower part of the hilt recalls similar hilt guard form as seen on early Pala swords c.10th-13th century (Rawson pp.2 and 9), and the hilt overall carries subtle similarities to Indian dagger forms such as the chilanum.

The hilt on this sword seems to be somewhat associated in style with a number of the forms seen in Robert Elgoods "Hindu Arms and Ritual" though certainly not necessarily by typology as much as by the symbolically structured and brass characteristic.

Looks like a great acquisition!!

Best regards,
Jim

Jim,

Your well thought out and erudite reply has motivated me to post a few Indian pieces. Will do so in other theads.

I agree completely with your reply on this great acquisition.

Did one of the fourm people win it?

Merry Christmas
Bill

Jim McDougall · 17th December 2006, 12:08 AM

Hi Bill,
Thanks very much!
Also thank you for the support in furthering our study on Indian weapons, these are so incredibly under researched in most cases. The greatest advance we have had on these has been Robert Elgood's outstanding and seminal work on "Hindu Arms and Ritual". I hope future reference books discussing ethnographic weapons will follow his lead with the excellent perspective he uses so skillfully in the examination and identification of them.

Interesting Tibetan items, and great story on the 'worn out' items!! Uh, I'd be happy to take a whole bunch of new shiny stuff over there to trade for all these old worn out things!!!!

Thanks again, and a very Merry Christmas to you as well,
Jim

15th December 2006, 12:46 PM	#1
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Indian? sword for ID Just ended. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...0714&rd=1&rd=1 The handle looks like a Phurba, but the blade seems to be of high fighting quality: doubt if it is "ceremonial" What is it?

15th December 2006, 01:54 PM	#3
Bill M Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: USA Georgia Posts: 1,599	Could well be Indian, though the handle is less of a phurba and more of a single end Dorje like you find on Nepalese / Tibetan bells and ritual instruments. Never seen a Dorje on a sword, but it looks real enough and would make sense. The first picture is of a wonderful old shaman bell from Nepal. I asked my freind in Kathmandu why the shaman wanted to part with such a beauitiful vintage bell with such wear useage and patina? He said that the shaman wanted a NEW shiny bell! He considered this one "worn out." I guess we buy a lot of their "worn out" stuff. I have heard that "vintage" in Japanese translates as "worn out." The second picture is an iron "Flame Dagger" ritual piece. Tibetan. Just noticed some rust. My lights show detail that is hard to see with regular illumination. Glad that I noticed it. Will do somthiing about it. Attached Images

15th December 2006, 01:18 PM	#2
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Hi Ariel. the hilt ..to me.....looks to be more Oriental. So I think Tibet is a possibillity. I am also wondering about the balance of this sword. The blade looks to be 'heavy' , and I would expect the pommel to be more substantial to aid balance. As a one handed sword...which this is....it looks to be a little unwieldy and cumbersome. Is it possible that the blade was rehilted?

15th December 2006, 05:23 PM	#4
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,143	Ariel this is another type of ceremonial Tibetan sword.

16th December 2006, 02:44 AM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,800	It is great to see interest in Indian weapons developing further here on the forum! In looking at this very interesting piece, the observations on the dorje form pommel are well placed and do of course recall that decorative element on Tibetan ritual items such as the phurba as well as seen on 'parasu' (ritual axe) and 'kartttrika' (ritual chopper). I do believe however that this is an Indian sword and by the hilt, probably either Deccani or Mysori. The blade seems to be of the early khanda type, and the assessment on the date seems reasonably placed c.1800, the blade quite possibly earlier. The hilt of the sword seems characteristically 'atavistic' in line with many Indian weapons, especially those intended for ceremonial or court purposes, recalling decorative dynamics including 'Tantric' elements (as seen on the Tibetan items) as well as the typical architecturally influenced structure. The botanical theme of the lower part of the hilt recalls similar hilt guard form as seen on early Pala swords c.10th-13th century (Rawson pp.2 and 9), and the hilt overall carries subtle similarities to Indian dagger forms such as the chilanum. The hilt on this sword seems to be somewhat associated in style with a number of the forms seen in Robert Elgoods "Hindu Arms and Ritual" though certainly not necessarily by typology as much as by the symbolically structured and brass characteristic. Looks like a great acquisition!! Best regards, Jim

17th December 2006, 12:08 AM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,800	Hi Bill, Thanks very much! Also thank you for the support in furthering our study on Indian weapons, these are so incredibly under researched in most cases. The greatest advance we have had on these has been Robert Elgood's outstanding and seminal work on "Hindu Arms and Ritual". I hope future reference books discussing ethnographic weapons will follow his lead with the excellent perspective he uses so skillfully in the examination and identification of them. Interesting Tibetan items, and great story on the 'worn out' items!! Uh, I'd be happy to take a whole bunch of new shiny stuff over there to trade for all these old worn out things!!!! Thanks again, and a very Merry Christmas to you as well, Jim