Balatos -- swords with balls

Bill M · 8th September 2006, 01:52 AM

From the Island of Nias, off the northern coast of Sumatra, Indonesia come these wonderful swords. The ball holds amulets,talismans and special ju-ju for the warrior.

I got the latest one (feautured) from Artzi because I really like the huge handle.

Need to do a little repair work on the ball, but I have some boar tusks and maybe add in some croc and tiger teeth.

I also really like the distinctive shields. Have pictures of the warriors with shields somewhere and will try to find and post them.

Comments?

RhysMichael · 8th September 2006, 02:03 AM

Isn't the ball made from boars tusks or do I have that wrong ?

Bill M · 8th September 2006, 02:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RhysMichael

Isn't the ball made from boars tusks or do I have that wrong ?

Boars' tusks are the usual main pieces, but often also have croc teeth. Some have tiger. I saw a very good one with all croc teeth. The seller turned down $5,000 for it. It was nice, but I certainly would never have paid that much for it.

Usually you don't have any of the "magic" stuff in the ball when you get one. The one on the far left is still intact. It also has a few croc teeth.

Rick · 8th September 2006, 02:04 AM

Should you really be modifying this sword Bill ?
I'd advise against it myself .

This brings up the eternal question ; when to 'restore' and just what exactly is 'restoration' ?

In any other facet of the world of antiques you would be lowering or destroying the value of this piece .

I'd advise against 'enhancing' the ball; it goes against the purity of the piece.

Bill M · 8th September 2006, 02:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

Should you really be modifying this sword Bill ?
I'd advise against it myself .

This brings up the eternal question ; when to 'restore' and just what exactly is 'restoration' ?

In any other facet of the world of antiques you would be lowering or destroying the value of this piece .

I'd advise against 'enhancing' the ball; it goes against the purity of the piece.

Hi Rick,

The eternal dilemma. Restore? Leave alone in the "as found state?"

I try to find out about the culture and how the orignial owners cared for their pieces. Recently I read that the Moro did not keep their battle blades bright because reflections might give away their positions. They did keep them clean and ALWAYS sharp!

To have an old scabbard and/or hilt is a sign of neglect and disrespect to a Javanese keris.

I have a silver sword, a "temple," "Newar" or "Nair." This was used by the Theyyam of Kerala / Malabar (india) in trance rituals to gods and goddesses. The swords and other accoutrements were kept in high polish. Not to do so would be to disprespect the goddess and you REALLY don't want to do that!

So I am cleaning away the patina/neglect to bring it back to its pristine condition. I do admit that this hurt me at first, then it seemed that the sword breathed a sigh of relief and enjoyment at being clean again.

I used to believe in the "Golden Rule." But now I am working on the "Platinum Rule:" Do unto others as they would be done unto."

As long as I can follow the practices other cultures used to respect their pieces, I will do my best -- within reason -- I am NOT feeding my panabases weekly blood. That is going further than I can handle.

So, to add teeth or not? I'll need to spend some meditation time with the new balato. WWND? What would Nias Do?

VANDOO · 8th September 2006, 05:30 AM

VERY NICE SWORDS BILL!!
IT LOOKS LIKE THERE ARE NOT TOO MANY BOARS TUSKS MISSING PERHAPS JUST PUTTING THOSE THAT ARE THERE BACK IN PLACE AND PERHAPS TIGHTENING THEM DOWN A BIT MIGHT COME CLOSE TO FIXING IT. IT LOOKS LIKE SOMEONE OPENED IT UP TO TAKE OUT THE MEDICINE PACKET IN THE CENTER BEFORE SELLING IT. WHAT SORT OF RELIGION OR BELIEFS DO THEY HAVE ON NIAS IT CAN'T BE ISLAM AS IT WOULD SURLY FORBID HAVEING ANYTHING TO DO WITH PIGS.

Bill M · 8th September 2006, 11:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VANDOO

VERY NICE SWORDS BILL!!
IT LOOKS LIKE THERE ARE NOT TOO MANY BOARS TUSKS MISSING PERHAPS JUST PUTTING THOSE THAT ARE THERE BACK IN PLACE AND PERHAPS TIGHTENING THEM DOWN A BIT MIGHT COME CLOSE TO FIXING IT. IT LOOKS LIKE SOMEONE OPENED IT UP TO TAKE OUT THE MEDICINE PACKET IN THE CENTER BEFORE SELLING IT. WHAT SORT OF RELIGION OR BELIEFS DO THEY HAVE ON NIAS IT CAN'T BE ISLAM AS IT WOULD SURLY FORBID HAVEING ANYTHING TO DO WITH PIGS.

Indonesian Islamic religion is very different from the middle east, especially Iraq and Iran. It is a thin veneer over the old animistic culture.

Islam is practiced and its laws enforced very differently in different cultures. The middle east version seems the most restrictive and severe,but, as is usual with religion, each culture feels its version is the correct one.

Can you imagine the Javanese with their emphasis on magic, offerings to various entities, existing in Iraq?

katana · 8th September 2006, 02:10 PM

What a fantastic collection......I think the talisman additions to ethnographic weapons of many cultures is truly facinating.
I wonder whether talisman from your defeated foe would be 'transfered' to the 'victor's' weapon..... to gain his 'magic' ?

Cyclura99 · 5th October 2006, 12:48 AM

Some people just do not get it what is real and what is NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!
WHat is real is what was used in the days heads were hunted .., I can keep going on and on and I think I made my point.
I can pick your fakes apart and show you what is real and what is NOT.I just have a hard time when a person tries to pass of fake objects as real tribal weapons .I will go toe to toe with anyone one on here and to make my point as to what is real authentic and what is NOT with regards to NIAS weapons swords shield spears ect ect..

I must thank that your lack of knowledge when you did not buy the TWO REAL 19th c NIAS SWORDS when you had a chance.Thank you Bills lack of Knowledge.

Oh yes Artzi is a great guy and a great deal of knowledge your last Nias sword you bought from him was offered to me first and he stated it was mid-20th c let me see that makes it 1950 or later.

Get educated read a book go to a museum instead of asking others if this is ok to buy or is that ok to buy as in price ect.. Its insulting.It gets old.. Don't you think BILL
Cy

ariel · 5th October 2006, 01:21 AM

Guys,
I do not collect these weapons and do not have a bone in the fight.
I agree with Cyclura99 that the only definition of a real sword is the one that was made for it's intended purpose: fighting. some have other definitions and I shall be the last person to talk them out of their misconceptions: collecting is such an idiosyncratic business that there is a place in it for every craze. If some people collect freshly-printed stamps, why would I argue with somebody collecting 50 year old swords? I try to collect really old swords as defined above. I do not always succeed, though

since the "forces of evil" often outsmart me to the point of embarrassement, but each and all of us have been fooled. The price of learning....

On the other hand, I suggest that a big part of the fun of collecting is exchange of information, and here I am firmly in Bill's corner. Even though we all compete to a degree, I have seen a lot of cooperation and selflessness among the Forumites. That what makes this Forum pleasant. I would be uncomfortable withholding true information from a Forumite who asked for advice, even though this info might help him to outbid me in the future. We often mention politeness of our dscussions as a sine qua non. This Forum allows a lot of berth for jokes (occasionally off color) and for a "no holds barred" approach. However, attempts to humiliate a fellow Forumite are something we all should avoid.
My 5 cents worth (before the inflation and taxes

)

Rick · 5th October 2006, 02:02 AM

I think this ugliness has gone far enough ; Cyclura, if you have an issue with Bill please deal with it out of forum .

This whole exchange IMO smacks of pettiness and personal conflict.

Cyclura, if you wish to help educate the other members feel free to do so in a pleasant way.

If you wish to simply attack Bill please do it on your own time.

Cyclura99 · 5th October 2006, 02:33 AM

When I am asked about a opinion I give it.When I am asked for pictures from a potencial buyer I send them thinking the person is a serious collector. I made the mistake of thinking BILL was a serious Collcetor .As far as being bitter Not even close .Its about trying to point out what a collector is and what a collector is NOT. Also what is REAL and what is NOT.

I believe in the truth even if its not what a person wants to read or hear only then can a person learn something.

If the Forum Moderator will allow I will post two Maybe three from my collection > REAL NIAS BALATOS WEAPONS with authentic Amulets used in the days of Head taking.

So there will be no question as to REAL and reproduction made for sale .

If this Forum is about learning then so be it.Its Up to the moderator to allow my Photos.

CY

Rick · 5th October 2006, 02:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cyclura99

When I am asked about a opinion I give it.When I am asked for pictures from a potencial buyer I send them thinking the person is a serious collector. I made the mistake of thinking BILL was a serious Collcetor .As far as being bitter Not even close .Its about trying to point out what a collector is and what a collector is NOT. CY

Cy, we would all love to see pictures of authentic old Nias swords; please do help to educate us; post them .

The personal business though is best kept between the individuals and off the forum .

I do not moderate this particular forum but since I am the ONLY moderator online at present; I feel that I must speak up for the sake of maintaining peace in the entire forum.

Rick

Andrew · 5th October 2006, 03:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cyclura99

When I am asked about a opinion I give it.When I am asked for pictures from a potencial buyer I send them thinking the person is a serious collector. I made the mistake of thinking BILL was a serious Collcetor .As far as being bitter Not even close .Its about trying to point out what a collector is and what a collector is NOT. Also what is REAL and what is NOT.

I believe in the truth even if its not what a person wants to read or hear only then can a person learn something.

If the Forum Moderator will allow I will post two Maybe three from my collection > REAL NIAS BALATOS WEAPONS with authentic Amulets used in the days of Head taking.

So there will be no question as to REAL and reproduction made for sale .

If this Forum is about learning then so be it.Its Up to the moderator to allow my Photos.

CY

You obviously have a personal issue with Bill. Frankly, I don't care if you do: I'm simply not interested in hearing about it. Do not use this forum to air your grievances. Take it to PM or email.

Feel free to post photos. We'd be delighted to discuss them with you.

8th September 2006, 01:52 AM	#1
Bill M Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: USA Georgia Posts: 1,599	Balatos -- swords with balls From the Island of Nias, off the northern coast of Sumatra, Indonesia come these wonderful swords. The ball holds amulets,talismans and special ju-ju for the warrior. I got the latest one (feautured) from Artzi because I really like the huge handle. Need to do a little repair work on the ball, but I have some boar tusks and maybe add in some croc and tiger teeth. I also really like the distinctive shields. Have pictures of the warriors with shields somewhere and will try to find and post them. Comments? Attached Images

5th October 2006, 12:48 AM	#9
Cyclura99 Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 15	FAKE, Reproduction,DANCE SWORD Some people just do not get it what is real and what is NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!! WHat is real is what was used in the days heads were hunted .., I can keep going on and on and I think I made my point. I can pick your fakes apart and show you what is real and what is NOT.I just have a hard time when a person tries to pass of fake objects as real tribal weapons .I will go toe to toe with anyone one on here and to make my point as to what is real authentic and what is NOT with regards to NIAS weapons swords shield spears ect ect.. I must thank that your lack of knowledge when you did not buy the TWO REAL 19th c NIAS SWORDS when you had a chance.Thank you Bills lack of Knowledge. Oh yes Artzi is a great guy and a great deal of knowledge your last Nias sword you bought from him was offered to me first and he stated it was mid-20th c let me see that makes it 1950 or later. Get educated read a book go to a museum instead of asking others if this is ok to buy or is that ok to buy as in price ect.. Its insulting.It gets old.. Don't you think BILL Cy

5th October 2006, 02:02 AM	#11
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,268	What Is It About Full Moons ? I think this ugliness has gone far enough ; Cyclura, if you have an issue with Bill please deal with it out of forum . This whole exchange IMO smacks of pettiness and personal conflict. Cyclura, if you wish to help educate the other members feel free to do so in a pleasant way. If you wish to simply attack Bill please do it on your own time. Last edited by Rick; 5th October 2006 at 02:24 AM.

5th October 2006, 02:33 AM	#12
Cyclura99 Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 15	Balatos the real DEAL When I am asked about a opinion I give it.When I am asked for pictures from a potencial buyer I send them thinking the person is a serious collector. I made the mistake of thinking BILL was a serious Collcetor .As far as being bitter Not even close .Its about trying to point out what a collector is and what a collector is NOT. Also what is REAL and what is NOT. I believe in the truth even if its not what a person wants to read or hear only then can a person learn something. If the Forum Moderator will allow I will post two Maybe three from my collection > REAL NIAS BALATOS WEAPONS with authentic Amulets used in the days of Head taking. So there will be no question as to REAL and reproduction made for sale . If this Forum is about learning then so be it.Its Up to the moderator to allow my Photos. CY

8th September 2006, 02:03 AM	#2
RhysMichael Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Virginia Posts: 520	Isn't the ball made from boars tusks or do I have that wrong ?

8th September 2006, 02:04 AM	#4
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,268	Should you really be modifying this sword Bill ? I'd advise against it myself . This brings up the eternal question ; when to 'restore' and just what exactly is 'restoration' ? In any other facet of the world of antiques you would be lowering or destroying the value of this piece . I'd advise against 'enhancing' the ball; it goes against the purity of the piece.

8th September 2006, 05:30 AM	#6
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	VERY NICE SWORDS BILL!! IT LOOKS LIKE THERE ARE NOT TOO MANY BOARS TUSKS MISSING PERHAPS JUST PUTTING THOSE THAT ARE THERE BACK IN PLACE AND PERHAPS TIGHTENING THEM DOWN A BIT MIGHT COME CLOSE TO FIXING IT. IT LOOKS LIKE SOMEONE OPENED IT UP TO TAKE OUT THE MEDICINE PACKET IN THE CENTER BEFORE SELLING IT. WHAT SORT OF RELIGION OR BELIEFS DO THEY HAVE ON NIAS IT CAN'T BE ISLAM AS IT WOULD SURLY FORBID HAVEING ANYTHING TO DO WITH PIGS.

8th September 2006, 02:10 PM	#8
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	What a fantastic collection......I think the talisman additions to ethnographic weapons of many cultures is truly facinating. I wonder whether talisman from your defeated foe would be 'transfered' to the 'victor's' weapon..... to gain his 'magic' ?

5th October 2006, 01:21 AM	#10
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Guys, I do not collect these weapons and do not have a bone in the fight. I agree with Cyclura99 that the only definition of a real sword is the one that was made for it's intended purpose: fighting. some have other definitions and I shall be the last person to talk them out of their misconceptions: collecting is such an idiosyncratic business that there is a place in it for every craze. If some people collect freshly-printed stamps, why would I argue with somebody collecting 50 year old swords? I try to collect really old swords as defined above. I do not always succeed, though since the "forces of evil" often outsmart me to the point of embarrassement, but each and all of us have been fooled. The price of learning.... On the other hand, I suggest that a big part of the fun of collecting is exchange of information, and here I am firmly in Bill's corner. Even though we all compete to a degree, I have seen a lot of cooperation and selflessness among the Forumites. That what makes this Forum pleasant. I would be uncomfortable withholding true information from a Forumite who asked for advice, even though this info might help him to outbid me in the future. We often mention politeness of our dscussions as a sine qua non. This Forum allows a lot of berth for jokes (occasionally off color) and for a "no holds barred" approach. However, attempts to humiliate a fellow Forumite are something we all should avoid. My 5 cents worth (before the inflation and taxes )