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Old 4th July 2017, 08:01 PM   #1
kronckew
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Default wotsit (pioneer sword?)?

picked this beasty up today from an auction over the weekend, appears to be a 'pioneer' sword, what looks like a british arrow mark on the blade. blade looks similar to that on an 1830 issue baker/pioneer sword, but with an unusual large tho well made wood grip with a brass guard, end pommel, and a cross checkered wood grip.

blade is 55 cm. long, 4.5 cm. wide at the guard, 6 mm. thick & distal tapered. the 20cm. 'yelman' is razor sharp, as is the blade almost to the guard. guard is 1.2cm. thick brass, carved to match the grip. pommel cap is held by 4 small brass screws with crossed heads. grip is 16cm. from guard to end of pommel. it's 4.2cm dia. at the guard, getting larger near the pommel. the 'saw' part is VERY sharp and the teeth are 'set' properly like a real hand saw, not just notches. blade is pitted, but has been polished and no active rust present. weight sans scabbard is 820gm. no other mark than the one shown.

scabbard is wood, covered in what looks like vellum, or thin calfskin, light color, a bit grimey. very well done. brass chape is well made as well. small holes are on the spine near the mouth and further down where suspension ring mounts would once have been.

so, wotsit? i initially thought it was a hunting sword variant of some sort, when i bid on it online, but this is more beefy than most. smaller photos were from dealer's online catalogue.

thanks in advance for any help or light shed on this item.
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Old 4th July 2017, 08:45 PM   #2
Norman McCormick
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Hi Wayne,
This thread may interest you particularly post no2 and the marks on the blade http://www.swordforum.com/forums/sh...Rifles-Regiment It is the only blade profile I think that fits yours. I have an 1856 Pattern Pioneers sword and the profile is different.
Regards,
Norman.
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Old 4th July 2017, 09:01 PM   #3
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the blade and marks fit, appears to have been repurposed, re-hilted and used in a later conflict. ww1 maybe? dad's army?
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Old 4th July 2017, 10:09 PM   #4
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Probably a private conversion rather than military. The facing arrow marks denote ''sold out of service''.
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Old 5th July 2017, 03:08 PM   #5
Ibrahiim al Balooshi
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It looks like a Martini Bayonet ... The British 1879 Sawback Bayonet with a reworked hilt Or an AC bayonet converted from P1859 Cutlass bayonet in 1878. Favoured in Irish circles and as an Engineers / Artillery weapon... ?

See http://www.bayonetsplus.com/f_MH_art_carbine.html

But its not! This is exactly as set out above by Norman at # 2...


E-Pattern-English-Pioneer's 1831-Lion Head Hanger-
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Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi : 5th July 2017 at 03:28 PM.
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Old 5th July 2017, 03:36 PM   #6
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yup. the later ones were straight and not well loved i hear. just imagine one of the MH sword bayos on the end of a full lrngth .45 cal martini-henry rifle.

nice to see the full 1830's weapon.

Last edited by kronckew : 5th July 2017 at 03:47 PM.
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Old 7th July 2017, 12:54 PM   #7
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Hi,
Here's the 1856 Pioneer model for comparison. I believe this particular one was issued in Jan 1900 and reissued in Nov 1902, if anyone can I.D. the stamps I'd be grateful. The chape appears to have been repaired at some point as the end should be squared off and not have the extra section as this one has. As an aside these swords were discontinued for Pioneer use but were reissued to the Royal Navy as cutlasses and not particularly well received as such as far I remember.
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Old 7th July 2017, 01:38 PM   #8
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Norman, I believe the stamp on the scabbard throat refers to the 5th Battalion Lancashire Fusiliers, while the stamp on the guard is for the 4th Batt. Royal Warwickshire Regiment.
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Old 7th July 2017, 09:46 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MacCathain
Norman, I believe the stamp on the scabbard throat refers to the 5th Battalion Lancashire Fusiliers, while the stamp on the guard is for the 4th Batt. Royal Warwickshire Regiment.



Hi,
Many thanks for the info
My Regards,
Norman.
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