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Old 16th June 2016, 12:39 AM   #1
ariel
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Default Attribution of Indian (?) handle: Hyderabad?

These very peculiar handles pop up from time to time, even on this Forum.
Invariably, they are attributed to Hyderabad ( Sindh, not Deccan). Even our local gurus, Oliver and Ward, attributed them as such.
I have no reason to disbelieve them, but wonder whether there is a particular source with more "official " attribution: book, museum etc.
Can you help me out?
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Old 16th June 2016, 05:00 AM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ariel
These very peculiar handles pop up from time to time, even on this Forum.
Invariably, they are attributed to Hyderabad ( Sindh, not Deccan). Even our local gurus, Oliver and Ward, attributed them as such.
I have no reason to disbelieve them, but wonder whether there is a particular source with more "official " attribution: book, museum etc.
Can you help me out?


There is a good book by the famous collector Shamshirs from Russia: Kamil Haidakov (Камил Хайдаков), Shamshirs: Old Sabres and the Secrets of Ancient Sword Making, Moscow, 2013.

I recommend to read this book. In his opinion, such a handles were the Arab Shamshirs.
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Old 16th June 2016, 06:30 AM   #3
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Hello Ariel,

I always thought this type of hilts are coming from the Arab countries. Even more so when decorated with the rather typical Yemeni filigree.

But, I am by no means a specialist in this field.
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Old 16th June 2016, 06:58 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mariusgmioc
Hello Ariel,

I always thought this type of hilts are coming from the Arab countries. Even more so when decorated with the rather typical Yemeni filigree.

But, I am by no means a specialist in this field.


I agree but if you look at the litterature, the best specialists say always Indo Arab, Arabo Indian, Yemen/Hyderabad... So in fact nobody knows...
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Old 16th June 2016, 10:43 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kubur
I agree but if you look at the litterature, the best specialists say always Indo Arab, Arabo Indian, Yemen/Hyderabad... So in fact nobody knows...



What a defeatist position!:-)

Sindh was always influenced by Arabian culture: Arab mercenaries served there, Arab traders were there, to the point that Oman until recently owned a part of neighboring Balochistan.

I can surely see Arabian decorative motives, but am unaware of a similar handle in any "Aravia proper" localities. To be blunt, IMHO, this is NOT an Arabian handle: this is a shamshir-type one with traceable South Arabian influences. The Sindhian origin is very probable.

I am looking for any documented evidence of its Sindh/Hyderabad attribution

The closest one I found was here:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=17982
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Old 16th June 2016, 03:14 PM   #6
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Very interesting and educative!

Thank you!
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Old 16th June 2016, 04:50 PM   #7
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Interesting. Starter asks whether there is description a similar Shamshirs in the literature . Next respected author theme makes his findings on the basis of unverified words. I am curious. Why ask the question, if you already have an opinion?

Perhaps to start is to read the book, which I recommend? Especially if it is written:

Quote:
Originally Posted by ariel
I have no reason to disbelieve them, but wonder whether there is a particular source with more "official " attribution: book, museum etc.
Can you help me out?
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Old 16th June 2016, 04:59 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mahratt
Interesting. Starter asks whether there is description a similar Shamshirs in the literature . Next respected author theme makes his findings on the basis of unverified words. I am curious. Why ask the question, if you already have an opinion?



Perhaps to start is to read the book, which I recommend?


I am well aware of this book and know you lifted your attribution from it verbatim for your paper.

I think both the author of the book and you were mistaken. Nothing terrible about it, that is what this Forum is all about.

But questioning is always useful, especially when there are good reasons to do so.
There is a well-provenanced sword from Hyderabad ( see reference), then there comes Lotfy with his information about Baluchi swords in Oman...

Hopefully, we may get more info.


Dig deeper, old son:-)
We may learn something interesting:-)

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Old 16th June 2016, 06:28 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ariel
I am well aware of this book and know you lifted your attribution from it verbatim for your paper.

I think both the author of the book and you were mistaken.

But questioning is always useful, especially when there are good reasons to do so.
There is a well-provenanced sword from Hyderabad ( see reference), then there comes Lotfy with his information about Baluchi swords in Oman...



And looking at Shamshir hilt I think this is Arabic Shamshir (as well as the author thinks, about which I wrote).

I appreciate the views of other participants. But you asked about the books or museum attribution, and not on personal opinion

I hope you can give an example from the book proves yours opinion. As long as we can say in the same way that you are wrong
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Old 16th June 2016, 05:59 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ariel
These very peculiar handles pop up from time to time, even on this Forum.
Invariably, they are attributed to Hyderabad ( Sindh, not Deccan). Even our local gurus, Oliver and Ward, attributed them as such.
I have no reason to disbelieve them, but wonder whether there is a particular source with more "official " attribution: book, museum etc.
Can you help me out?
Ariel, seeing the full sword and the scabbard would be helpfull, any additional images?
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Old 16th June 2016, 06:12 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by estcrh
Ariel, seeing the full sword and the scabbard would be helpfull, any additional images?


This Shamshir now in my collection Here's a photo:
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Old 16th June 2016, 07:46 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by estcrh
Ariel, seeing the full sword and the scabbard would be helpfull, any additional images?


Look for an identical one with very firm provenance to Hyderabad/ Sindh in the reference in my post #5.
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Old 17th June 2016, 01:35 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ariel
Look for an identical one with very firm provenance to Hyderabad/ Sindh in the reference in my post #5.

Yes I remember this sword.
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Old 17th June 2016, 10:07 PM   #14
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The remarkable weapon at #1 reveals I believe the sword hilt adopted on Omani Shamshiir swords. Ariel is quite correct that Baluchi peoples have been in the Oman Zanj regions for a long time.. Saiid the Great employed Baluchi mercenaries to remove the Portuguese from Fort Jesus in the early 1800s... They have been in these regions ever since and in Oman largely on the Baatina Coast . The Omani habit of recruiting Baluch soldiers into its Armed Forces is a tradition going bck to the time Oman owned Gwadur and that part of what is now Baluchistan (under the Pakistani Flag) which was sold back to Pakistan in about 1950. Oman still recruits there.
The Omani Shamshiir probably made in Hyderabad has a hilt similar to the project weapon thus I believe that is the link to this extraordinary sword ...particularly the silver wired knot. Shown below; The Omani Shamshiir
See http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...omani+shamshiir
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Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi : 17th June 2016 at 10:18 PM.
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Old 17th June 2016, 10:26 PM   #15
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Jam of Las Bela and suite, Durbar Delhi 1903, Jam of Las bela was the princely title of Las Bela State in Balochistan.

Take a look at the sword hilts.
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Old 23rd October 2016, 10:29 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi
The remarkable weapon at #1 reveals I believe the sword hilt adopted on Omani Shamshiir swords. Ariel is quite correct that Baluchi peoples have been in the Oman Zanj regions for a long time.. Saiid the Great employed Baluchi mercenaries to remove the Portuguese from Fort Jesus in the early 1800s... They have been in these regions ever since and in Oman largely on the Baatina Coast . The Omani habit of recruiting Baluch soldiers into its Armed Forces is a tradition going bck to the time Oman owned Gwadur and that part of what is now Baluchistan (under the Pakistani Flag) which was sold back to Pakistan in about 1950. Oman still recruits there.
The Omani Shamshiir probably made in Hyderabad has a hilt similar to the project weapon thus I believe that is the link to this extraordinary sword ...particularly the silver wired knot. Shown below; The Omani Shamshiir
See http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...omani+shamshiir

Saalam Ibrahiim,just wanted to point out which you also are aware when Pakistan separated to be a independent Country from India,Baluchistan was a Separate province during the British India Empire ,but the Pakistan Army Illegally Occupied Baluchistan in 1948 ,The Baluchis are Fighting for Independence till Date,so lots of weapons in Baluchistan has Influence from the Indian Subcontinent as well as Arabia,Regards
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