How to get new leather/hide old ?

Martin Lubojacky · 5th October 2014, 11:51 AM

Please, within my restoring activities (or better attempts) I am looking for an advice how to "age" the new leather (on scabbard).
Regards,
Martin

Shakethetrees · 5th October 2014, 04:25 PM

Impossible.

I have been a professional restorer for over thirty years and have never been satisfied with any "trick" that claims to age leather.

So, the thing to do is to get some old leather and use it.

Get to know an antique furniture restorer/upholsterer. Leather covered chairs, sofas, etc. come in and the old covering is stripped away and disposed of.

Different projects have different requirements: grips on swords and knives call for very thin material. Scabbards, thicker.

Don't shy away from pieces that have cracking or shows that the surface has been distressed. It's hard to get a good piece of the right size no matter the condition. The distressing and cracking can work in your favor.

The only kinds to stay away from is that afflicted by what is called "red rot" where the leather turns to powder and crumbles with even minor handling, and the kind that has become so stiff and brittle that it can't be bent even gently. Don't waste your time with either.

The material used has to be able to withstand being manipulated. No neat's foot oils, lexol, Pecards leather cream or other "cure" will turn back the clock even a little. They even speed up its decline! Stay from them like the plague. If you must use them, use em on products that are still in current use, like shoes, belts, ladies' handbags, etc. but never on antique leather. Period.

If my diatribe has not caused any of you to hit the back button and your curiosity has been awakened, I will be glad to give some advanced advice and more tips on the subject.

Rick · 5th October 2014, 04:41 PM

Leather Therapy restorer and conditioner .
I don't really wish to contradict others' wisdom; but this is one hell of a good product .

Shakethetrees · 5th October 2014, 07:12 PM

It could be a great product for leather still in use, but all conditioners contain fatty acids or petroleum products that turn aggressive and hasten the decay. I have seen old stitching (cotton thread) break after application of some miracle product that makes claims of being scientifically formulated, etc., etc., etc.

In the last thirty plus years I have tried just about everything one time or another. All rubbish.

If the leather in question is still in use, that's another thing entirely.

Care for long term preservation is another matter entirely. And, with preservation, nothing is done to the object that can't be undone. You can't un-smear something that soaks into the body of the leather. Neutral waxes, like Renaissance Wax are the exception. They do not "feed" the leather, but lay on the surface.

Do the research. I have.

Sajen · 5th October 2014, 08:09 PM

Hello Shakethetrees,

I've used boot polish on some of my leather sheaths. The have get a nice look again. Was it a mistake? I think what is good for my shoes can't be wrong for the scabbards.

Regards,
Detlef

Shakethetrees · 5th October 2014, 09:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

Hello Shakethetrees,

I've used boot polish on some of my leather sheaths. The have get a nice look again. Was it a mistake? I think what is good for my shoes can't be wrong for the scabbards.

Regards,
Detlef

No, boot polish and shoe polish are generally OK. They do not "feed" the leather, but sit in a layer on top. It's also a good protective coating to help the old leather resist deterioration from handling, etc.

Martin Lubojacky · 6th October 2014, 09:52 AM

Thank you all for your inputs. I think Shakethetrees perfectly understand my problem. I decided to complete nice central Asian sabre, i. e. to make new (old like) scabbard. I gave the order to the restorer (he is restorer amateur, by original profession he is silversmith). I am not satisfied with the result, since it is quite obvious at the first glance, that the leather cover is very new. I will do my best to make it "old" now, to make it fragile and dry. Currently, the "completed" sword looks like if you pack old romantic beauty to "disneyland". Shakethetrees unfortunately confirmed my suspicion, ie. that it will be very difficult, if not impossible.... Under such circumstances it is really better to leave old swords without scabbards, than to waste the money for doubtful results ...

Other inputs are concerning conservation/preservation of old leather (scabbards). This is also very interesting (and for collectors important) topic. I have good experience with ordinary beeswax and with anil shoe polish. As Shakethetrees said, the surface remains protected and, I think probably it is also more resistant to airhumidity changes and polution. All my items which I treated like this 15 yers ago are still intact (this is my amaterur evaluation, this is not expert´s receipe - who nows how in this way treated leather items will look like after fifty years). As far as old african shields are concerned, I tried lanolin dissolved in technical gasoline. It gives the shield its original weight and elasticity again. But such "penetrating" methods are, as Shakethetrees said, dangerous (as I heard - while using incorrect solvent proportions (too much lanolin) or another unrecommended fats or oils, the orgininal chemical structures/bonds could be detroyed in the leather and the item could slowly decompose. There is also aesthetic risk - dark stains could develop).

There is also another problem, which I ll have to solve again soon: To enlarge original old and dry scabbard, which shrank during the years when the sword was out ....

Best regards,
Martin

Tim Simmons · 6th October 2014, 06:24 PM

You could leave the scabbard somewhere it is exposed to the weather, year long with some monitoring. Wind, rain, drying sun rather like a leather roof rack strap will soon look old. I find old leather will respond to olive oil. However really old leather has basically had it as suggested.

colin henshaw · 7th October 2014, 08:57 AM

From recent personal experience - I used one of those "leather dressings" on 19th century cracked and dried leather straps. Did not soften the leather in any way, just made it darker...

Martin Lubojacky · 21st October 2014, 07:58 PM

Active link
http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=3912

spiral · 21st October 2014, 09:52 PM

Ahhh in that case dont bother etching again, if it was clear wootz or laminated it would show as Artzi would have already expertly etched it.

Spiral

5th October 2014, 11:51 AM	#1
Martin Lubojacky Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Czech Republic Posts: 845	How to get new leather/hide old ? Please, within my restoring activities (or better attempts) I am looking for an advice how to "age" the new leather (on scabbard). Regards, Martin

5th October 2014, 04:25 PM	#2
Shakethetrees Member Join Date: Apr 2014 Location: Louisiana Posts: 363	Impossible. I have been a professional restorer for over thirty years and have never been satisfied with any "trick" that claims to age leather. So, the thing to do is to get some old leather and use it. Get to know an antique furniture restorer/upholsterer. Leather covered chairs, sofas, etc. come in and the old covering is stripped away and disposed of. Different projects have different requirements: grips on swords and knives call for very thin material. Scabbards, thicker. Don't shy away from pieces that have cracking or shows that the surface has been distressed. It's hard to get a good piece of the right size no matter the condition. The distressing and cracking can work in your favor. The only kinds to stay away from is that afflicted by what is called "red rot" where the leather turns to powder and crumbles with even minor handling, and the kind that has become so stiff and brittle that it can't be bent even gently. Don't waste your time with either. The material used has to be able to withstand being manipulated. No neat's foot oils, lexol, Pecards leather cream or other "cure" will turn back the clock even a little. They even speed up its decline! Stay from them like the plague. If you must use them, use em on products that are still in current use, like shoes, belts, ladies' handbags, etc. but never on antique leather. Period. If my diatribe has not caused any of you to hit the back button and your curiosity has been awakened, I will be glad to give some advanced advice and more tips on the subject.

5th October 2014, 04:41 PM	#3
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,376	Leather Therapy restorer and conditioner . I don't really wish to contradict others' wisdom; but this is one hell of a good product .

5th October 2014, 07:12 PM	#4
Shakethetrees Member Join Date: Apr 2014 Location: Louisiana Posts: 363	It could be a great product for leather still in use, but all conditioners contain fatty acids or petroleum products that turn aggressive and hasten the decay. I have seen old stitching (cotton thread) break after application of some miracle product that makes claims of being scientifically formulated, etc., etc., etc. In the last thirty plus years I have tried just about everything one time or another. All rubbish. If the leather in question is still in use, that's another thing entirely. Care for long term preservation is another matter entirely. And, with preservation, nothing is done to the object that can't be undone. You can't un-smear something that soaks into the body of the leather. Neutral waxes, like Renaissance Wax are the exception. They do not "feed" the leather, but lay on the surface. Do the research. I have.

5th October 2014, 08:09 PM	#5
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 9,416	Hello Shakethetrees, I've used boot polish on some of my leather sheaths. The have get a nice look again. Was it a mistake? I think what is good for my shoes can't be wrong for the scabbards. Regards, Detlef

6th October 2014, 09:52 AM	#7
Martin Lubojacky Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Czech Republic Posts: 845	Thank you all for your inputs. I think Shakethetrees perfectly understand my problem. I decided to complete nice central Asian sabre, i. e. to make new (old like) scabbard. I gave the order to the restorer (he is restorer amateur, by original profession he is silversmith). I am not satisfied with the result, since it is quite obvious at the first glance, that the leather cover is very new. I will do my best to make it "old" now, to make it fragile and dry. Currently, the "completed" sword looks like if you pack old romantic beauty to "disneyland". Shakethetrees unfortunately confirmed my suspicion, ie. that it will be very difficult, if not impossible.... Under such circumstances it is really better to leave old swords without scabbards, than to waste the money for doubtful results ... Other inputs are concerning conservation/preservation of old leather (scabbards). This is also very interesting (and for collectors important) topic. I have good experience with ordinary beeswax and with anil shoe polish. As Shakethetrees said, the surface remains protected and, I think probably it is also more resistant to airhumidity changes and polution. All my items which I treated like this 15 yers ago are still intact (this is my amaterur evaluation, this is not expert´s receipe - who nows how in this way treated leather items will look like after fifty years). As far as old african shields are concerned, I tried lanolin dissolved in technical gasoline. It gives the shield its original weight and elasticity again. But such "penetrating" methods are, as Shakethetrees said, dangerous (as I heard - while using incorrect solvent proportions (too much lanolin) or another unrecommended fats or oils, the orgininal chemical structures/bonds could be detroyed in the leather and the item could slowly decompose. There is also aesthetic risk - dark stains could develop). There is also another problem, which I ll have to solve again soon: To enlarge original old and dry scabbard, which shrank during the years when the sword was out .... Best regards, Martin

6th October 2014, 06:24 PM	#8
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,925	You could leave the scabbard somewhere it is exposed to the weather, year long with some monitoring. Wind, rain, drying sun rather like a leather roof rack strap will soon look old. I find old leather will respond to olive oil. However really old leather has basically had it as suggested.

7th October 2014, 08:57 AM	#9
colin henshaw Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 1,429	From recent personal experience - I used one of those "leather dressings" on 19th century cracked and dried leather straps. Did not soften the leather in any way, just made it darker...

21st October 2014, 07:58 PM	#10
Martin Lubojacky Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Czech Republic Posts: 845	Active link http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=3912

21st October 2014, 09:52 PM	#11
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	Ahhh in that case dont bother etching again, if it was clear wootz or laminated it would show as Artzi would have already expertly etched it. Spiral