Tulwar with ladder pattern

DaveS · 3rd February 2014, 05:30 AM

Here for comment is a tulwar with a pattern-welded ladder blade. The blade is 29 inches long, 34 inches overall. The gold overlay on the handle is about 80 percent intact. The scabbard shows a lot of wear but it is pretty much all there Any ideas on age? I'm thinking somewhere around the middle 1800s..........Dave.

Norman McCormick · 8th February 2014, 03:09 PM

Hi Dave,
I'm surprised that no-one has commented on this yet, let's hope our Indian experts see this soon and can supply you with an educated opinion something that I am sadly not qualified to do.

Regards,
Norman.

archer · 13th February 2014, 08:56 PM

Hi Dave, I finally found some photos of similar blades. Two are different areas of the same blade not as nice as yours but, of the same type of patterns. I've read I think by more than on author that Laddering can occur naturally?? I'm leaning toward the consistency of repeated blows causing the patterns. The third photo here is sort of like double laddering but surely caused by repeated blows needed to shape the arc in the blade. That's my guess for what it's worth. Steve

RSWORD · 13th February 2014, 09:41 PM

I would not refer to the pattern on these blades as "ladder pattern". Typically, a ladder pattern is on a wootz blade, with ladder "rungs" that stretch the length of the blade in a regular and repeating way. Dave's blade is not wootz. It is a pattern welded blade and while you do have a repeating pattern, it is not what I would consider a ladder pattern. I do believe the pattern created here is a manipulation of the layered blade. Same on a ladder pattern in wootz. It is manipulated through the forging process. It certainly takes a bit of skill to forge, fold, manipulate and hammer out a pattern welded blade where you get such a bold pattern. While not what I would consider as a ladder pattern blade, it is a lovely example of Indian pattern welding. As far as an estimation of age, I would guess Dave's tulwar to be early to mid 19th century.

DaveS · 13th February 2014, 11:12 PM

Ron, Steve: Thanks for your input. I have heard that a ladder pattern should contain forty steps representing the forty steps to Allah. It seems when I count I get either 38, 39, or even 41. It's difficult on this blade because not all the steps are that easy to see. Also I don't know if the "true" ladder is strictly confined to wootz and I wish I could remember where it was stated that it also occurs on purpose in a layered blade....Dave

Sossan · 20th February 2014, 04:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveS

Ron, Steve: Thanks for your input. I have heard that a ladder pattern should contain forty steps representing the forty steps to Allah. It seems when I count I get either 38, 39, or even 41. It's difficult on this blade because not all the steps are that easy to see. Also I don't know if the "true" ladder is strictly confined to wootz and I wish I could remember where it was stated that it also occurs on purpose in a layered blade....Dave

The 40 steps should not be taken literally. The Laddered Pattern is said to be a representation of the 40 steps of Mohammed and not literally 40 steps in the pattern.

ALEX · 14th February 2014, 11:02 AM

Agree with RSWORD. The blade is of mechanical damascus and laddering does not apply to this pattern. What appear to be ladders are part of the pattern.

Richard Furrer · 17th February 2014, 02:52 PM

I agree with the age estimate and mechanical pattern-welding, but it is a ladder pattern. There are but a few ways to make this effect and there is overlap between this and the wootz laddering technique.

Ric

3rd February 2014, 05:30 AM	#1
DaveS Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 327	Tulwar with ladder pattern Here for comment is a tulwar with a pattern-welded ladder blade. The blade is 29 inches long, 34 inches overall. The gold overlay on the handle is about 80 percent intact. The scabbard shows a lot of wear but it is pretty much all there Any ideas on age? I'm thinking somewhere around the middle 1800s..........Dave. Attached Images

13th February 2014, 08:56 PM	#3
archer Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 373	Odd Blade Patterns Hi Dave, I finally found some photos of similar blades. Two are different areas of the same blade not as nice as yours but, of the same type of patterns. I've read I think by more than on author that Laddering can occur naturally?? I'm leaning toward the consistency of repeated blows causing the patterns. The third photo here is sort of like double laddering but surely caused by repeated blows needed to shape the arc in the blade. That's my guess for what it's worth. Steve Attached Images

8th February 2014, 03:09 PM	#2
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,646	Hi Dave, I'm surprised that no-one has commented on this yet, let's hope our Indian experts see this soon and can supply you with an educated opinion something that I am sadly not qualified to do. Regards, Norman.

13th February 2014, 09:41 PM	#4
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,093	I would not refer to the pattern on these blades as "ladder pattern". Typically, a ladder pattern is on a wootz blade, with ladder "rungs" that stretch the length of the blade in a regular and repeating way. Dave's blade is not wootz. It is a pattern welded blade and while you do have a repeating pattern, it is not what I would consider a ladder pattern. I do believe the pattern created here is a manipulation of the layered blade. Same on a ladder pattern in wootz. It is manipulated through the forging process. It certainly takes a bit of skill to forge, fold, manipulate and hammer out a pattern welded blade where you get such a bold pattern. While not what I would consider as a ladder pattern blade, it is a lovely example of Indian pattern welding. As far as an estimation of age, I would guess Dave's tulwar to be early to mid 19th century.

13th February 2014, 11:12 PM	#5
DaveS Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 327	Ron, Steve: Thanks for your input. I have heard that a ladder pattern should contain forty steps representing the forty steps to Allah. It seems when I count I get either 38, 39, or even 41. It's difficult on this blade because not all the steps are that easy to see. Also I don't know if the "true" ladder is strictly confined to wootz and I wish I could remember where it was stated that it also occurs on purpose in a layered blade....Dave

14th February 2014, 11:02 AM	#7
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	Agree with RSWORD. The blade is of mechanical damascus and laddering does not apply to this pattern. What appear to be ladders are part of the pattern.

17th February 2014, 02:52 PM	#8
Richard Furrer Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Sturgeon Bay, Wisconsin Posts: 163	I agree with the age estimate and mechanical pattern-welding, but it is a ladder pattern. There are but a few ways to make this effect and there is overlap between this and the wootz laddering technique. Ric