Ethnographic Arms & Armour
 

Go Back   Ethnographic Arms & Armour > Discussion Forums > European Armoury
User Name
Password
FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 19th December 2013, 01:46 PM   #1
Marcus den toom
Member
 
Marcus den toom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 425
Default German hackbut barrel

I found this hackbut barrel at a old auction, it is claimed to be 15th century but i found a similair one at Hermann Historica auction 62/63 lot 14. the one at Herman Historica is dated 17th century and French.
I am confused, 2 century's is quit a big range



Marcus den toom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th December 2013, 02:26 PM   #2
Matchlock
(deceased)
 
Matchlock's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking
Posts: 4,310
Default

Hi Marcus,


Thanks for sharing but: what auction is this from?

And this matchlock petronel: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...4169#post164169
?



This hackbut/haquebut barrel you posted, on the grounds of its general shape and some clear formal criteria, can be safely dated to ca. 1530-40 and is, in all probability, neither of Nuremberg nor Augsburg nor Italian make but possibly Swiss, French or Netherlandish.

The dating criteria are: of rounded shape throughout, no clear sectioning except for the muzzle, small square backsight at the extreme base of the barrel, elongated, swamped and round muzzle section with roped freeze and square muzzle (often found on barrels from the Netherlands), bead foresight, long and slender hook and small right-hand side ignition pan, the pivoted swiveling pan cover now missing.

On the underside of the rear barrel base there ought to be (or may be missing) a round loop for a transversal stock pin; the other, forward pin went thru the hole in the hook.



Best,
Michael

Last edited by Matchlock : 20th December 2013 at 12:42 PM.
Matchlock is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th December 2013, 02:37 PM   #3
Marcus den toom
Member
 
Marcus den toom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 425
Default

Hi Michael,

A thousand thanks, the barrel was still for sale apparantly but doublled in price since the last auction

This one can be found at the 40th auction of Czerny's auction house. A very nice auction house, it sold the Matchlock rifle i showed earlier just a few weeks ago as well.
Marcus den toom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th December 2013, 02:42 PM   #4
Matchlock
(deceased)
 
Matchlock's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking
Posts: 4,310
Default

What exactly was the date and lot numbers of that haquebut and the matchlock petronel auction at Czerny's?
I could not find either of these in their catalogs.

m
Matchlock is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th December 2013, 02:45 PM   #5
Marcus den toom
Member
 
Marcus den toom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 425
Default

auction 43, lot number 1400
sold at sunday 17th of november

and the hackbut was auction 40 lot 930.
Maybe i will own it, probably not
Marcus den toom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th December 2013, 03:03 PM   #6
Matchlock
(deceased)
 
Matchlock's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking
Posts: 4,310
Default

Thanks, Marcus,


The classification list of Czerny's is a catastrophe: the matchlock petronel is not listed either among 'long guns' or 'military firearms'! Thus I could not find it without knowing its lot no.

Could you please post the description and measurements of that haquebut barrel? Their catalog no. 40 is no longer online.


Best,
Michael
Matchlock is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th December 2013, 04:29 PM   #7
Matchlock
(deceased)
 
Matchlock's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking
Posts: 4,310
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matchlock
Hi Marcus,
On the underside of the rear barrel base there ought to be (or may be missing) a round loop for a transversal stock pin; the other, forward pin went thru the hole in the hook.
Best,
Michael


As there obviously was no side view provided by the auction house I cannot tell whether the rear loop is still there or not.

What date was that Bonhams sale? That barrel is mid-16th c., possibly Italian or French, the dovetailed pan is missing.


Best,
m
Attached Images
     

Last edited by Matchlock : 20th December 2013 at 04:42 PM.
Matchlock is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th December 2013, 05:08 PM   #8
Marcus den toom
Member
 
Marcus den toom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 425
Default

it was the sale on 30november in 2011 (london).

I thought that rectangular "hooks" on these barrels where made earlier?
Marcus den toom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th December 2013, 05:23 PM   #9
Matchlock
(deceased)
 
Matchlock's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking
Posts: 4,310
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus den toom
it was the sale on 30november in 2011 (london).

I thought that rectangular "hooks" on these barrels where made earlier?



This wall hook should actually not be called 'rectangular'; it's rather rounded, basically very much like the one on that Czerny's barrel, and figured as a sea monster.
As I have tried to state several times, the earliest - and actually rectangular - wall hooks on barrels seem to have appeared in ca. 1430; they evolved a certain degree of staging after ca. 1450, and after ca. 1510-15 they seem to have taken on rounded (Renaissance-type) shapes.
Wall hooks had normally disappeared by ca. 1600 but are found as late as the second half of the 18th c. (!!!) on special types of wallgun barrels.

Best,
Michael
Matchlock is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25th December 2013, 05:00 PM   #10
Matchlock
(deceased)
 
Matchlock's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking
Posts: 4,310
Default A Good Nuremberg Hackbut, ca. 1540, in the Army Museum Stockholm

Although the snap tinderlock and swiveling pan cover are missing, the finely preserved lime wood or pear wood full stock will convey a good impression of what such pieces would look like when complete.
The second, the blackened fir wood (!) stock heavily wormed, dry rotten and probably not to be saved, the lock mechanism also missing, I photographed in the famous Oberhausmuseum Passau, Lower Bavaria, a bit over 100 km east of where I live.
Regarding the stock, I must add that I offered them to consolidate and conserve it right at my first visit there some 35 years ago. They did not show the least interest though I warned them that it would dissolve before their very eyes. When I got there again a few years later, they had soaked it in crude linseed oil thru and thru, resulting in severe wood losses. That was a final treatment, nothing can be done about it any more. All it is now is a sticky, almost amorphous mass. I would have given that stock hundreds of injections of a hot watery solution of bone glue for days and weeks, and the surface would have been unharmed and unchanged. Museums ...


Anyway, you remember I hold some fine Nuremberg hagbut/haquebut/hackbut barrels coming from that museum during WW II in my collection.


Also attached find a snap tinderlock, Nuremberg, ca. 1540, made by Hans Koler (the hourglass mark should be attributed to him), of exactly the type missing from the Stockholm and Passau pieces. The wing nut is missing from the serpentine. That lock is preserved in the Bavarian Army Museum Ingolstadt, 30 km from my home; it belongs to an arquebus of ca. 1540, the barrel marked by Hans Mörl, who shared a workshop with Hans Koler in 1537. The museum staff do not realize (or even believe) that the mechanism belongs to the gun ...



Best,
Michael
Attached Images
            

Last edited by Matchlock : 26th December 2013 at 01:57 PM.
Matchlock is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump



All times are GMT. The time now is 08:11 AM.


Powered by: vBulletin Version 3.0.3
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Posts are regarded as being copyrighted by their authors and the act of posting material is deemed to be a granting of an irrevocable nonexclusive license for display here.